5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Also wanted to ask if i fasted during my period week or the week prior to my period, am I likely to lose weight or stay the same ? What are everyone's experiences ?

Juicy - my personal experience is, I don’t get TOTM due to my coil but I still get horrific water retention at that TOTM. My stomach swells like a balloon I either find I stay the same or gain a little bit as soon as it’s over I loose the extra and normally a bit more on top.

Just continue with the FDs and it will catch up with you.

anyone find Fast Days make you feel tired?

they make me cold! Brrr...

Just had an awesome hour of yoga - a 121 with a woman I know - it was amazing. Booked a course of 6...

Hi all,
Please may I join? I've been lurking on the thread since New Year and am so impressed with all your efforts!

I have been trying to do 5:2 since 1st Jan - have around 3 stone to lose (to start off with). I have kept my calories under 1000 apart from 2 days when I raised them to around 1700 (TDEE is around 1800). No alcohol, no biscuits, cakes, chocs all year. Have started C25K and gym 3-4 times a week.

I initially managed to lose a couple of pounds but then have battled with the same pound up and down for just over a week. It's really demoralising. My question is - is it possible to eat too little on NFD?? I just expected to have made more progress by now, or am I being too impatient?

Thanks for all your help

Hi Cajo welcome!

Read bcf post at 08:39am this morning. She has explained it well to another poster who asked a similar question

Iamblossom - yes, tired, cold - actually wondering if it's not connected and I might be coming down with something. Meh.

purpleviolet - thanks and apologies - I somehow missed those very useful comments from this morning.

Anyone else doing a FD today? Was really tempted to do a two week weigh in today, but had agreed with my manager who is also doing 5:2 only to weigh in on the 1st feb.

Morning all.

Feeling ill today with heavy cold so having a mini fast of breakfast and small dinner but no lunch as i seem to remember it isnt a good idea to fast if ill?

Yes me mighty - have found it tough going, mainly because I have been at home.

Can't wait to go to bed!!

Man I’m struggling today too. Hardest day I’ve had of fasting yet. I just want to eat everything! I’m so hungry. I have done all the usual tricks too- marmite, distractions, drinks etc.

Kitchen is closed at 560. The 60 was an illegal petits filous.

I’ve been logging my cals on my NFDs all week. I am over by 200 most days. FFS. I wish I could sort out my NFDs! Logging avidly again this week.

Welcome, cajo
Sounds like you have been avoiding junk very well, so let's consider what may be slowing things down …

Did I misread, or are you doing 5 days @ 1000 cals and 2 days @ 1700 ?
That sounds very tough and it"s not 5:2 - where the idea is to have 2 FDs @ 500 cals and 5 NFDs @ TDEE.

The contrast FD / NFD helps boost loss and also metabolism, but not if you have too many FDs per week.

Recommendations:

• Check TDEE calculation again - use this TDEE Calc (it's the one in the OP)
  If you exercise, put one level lower than you think, in this calculation.

• Do 2 FDs per week @ 500 cals (it's ok to go a bit over, when you're getting used to fasting)
  Non-consecutive re easier for most folk

• Do 5 NFDs @ around TDEE
  If you like, you can eat a bit less during the week, to bank calories for the weekend

If you have been doing standard calorie restriction for months before doing 5:2, or have dieted a lot in the past, your metabolism may have dialled down then.
Eating around your TDEE on 5:2 can help gradually increase TDEE again.

juicy I recommend you stick to 2 FDs per week if you have been dieting a lot, see aove.

Most women retain water during totm, because of the hormonal changes
This may just be a couple of lb, or it may be 6-8 lb; I'm sure you've noticed what your individual bod normally does.

Keep on 5:2 during totm as usual
If you avoid the totm minchies, then this water should be released, along with your weekly fat loss, during the FD after your totm has finished.

Note: Keep drinking water, including on totm, or especially with high BP
This actually helps your body flush out excess water
It is also necessary for efficient fat-burning

fizzy flavoured junk does not bring the same benefits as water
Most are not very good for you, especially Coke / Pepsi, including the diet kinds
Try to keep fizz to no more than 1 x 330 ml glass or can per day.

cajo Add drinking lots of water to your list of good habits
Sometimes just upping water does the trick

I hope you get rid of that nasty cold very soon, bestbees

When ill:
Drink lots of water and get plenty of sleep
(you all know this, but many of you don't take care of yourselves, so I nag )

Fasting when ill:

• If you have a fever or upset stomach, NEVER fast
  In fact, after a stomach bug, wait a week after symptoms go before fasting again - your gut often needs this extra time, to avoid return if symptoms

• If you have a cold / cough without fever, you can fast if you wish
  However, if you feel grotty, probably best to have a TLC day of healthy nutritious food within TDEE,
  but no junk or booze - these can slow down recovery.

What about fizzy water BCF?

I'm hearing reports that fizzy water increases hunger pangs so now have ditched that as well!

Fizzy water - the NON-flavoured kind - doesn't have any nasties in it. That's the main thing.

Some dentists have whinged that it also affects tooth enamel, just not as badly as other fizz
However, fizzy water is miles above other choices like other fizz or coke, so "don't sweat the small stuff"

If that makes it easier to drink more water, then have the fizzy kind
If it helps you avoid the 2nd glass of wine, have fizzy water

I think it is only flavoured fizz - sugar or sweeteners - that cause hunger pangs
Fizzy water shouldn't, afaik

Glad you’ve said that BCF.

I’ve ditched the coke, fruit juice and alcohol and I can no longer drink squash as I find it vile.

I can’t part with my fizzy flavored tho. I tried still but I don’t like it, can’t win them all tho

I found out something cool on MFP today, if you tab across you can change days so I can meal plan ahead of time on there and know exactly what I’m having and portion size and calories for the day. What with that and the barcode scanner I’m happy as Larry.

Thanks so much BCF - sorry I didn't explain myself very clearly. I have been doing 2 x days per week @ approx 500 calories and all other days less than 1000 calories apart from 2 (the last two sundays) where a roast dinner pushed it up to around 1700 calories, which is still under my TDEE which according to the calculator is 1835.

Initially I lost 3-4 lb in very quick succession, but as I said this has now plateaued for the past week or so.

I have done 5:2 about 3 years ago to good effect and lost about a stone very easily (sometimes doing 4:3) but haven't done anything recently -except eat rubbish- diet wise so I wouldn't have thought I'd have affected my metabolism.

I do need to drink more water though - I tend to have tea / herbal tea rather than plain water.

Thanks very much for all your help!

Kitchen closed at 501. Today was hard.

not saying this study is the definitive, but it struck me when I heard about it because it resonated with me - I was at set point for a long time before I began gaining more and pretty much nothing changed except....fizzy water.

www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/can-fizzy-water-make-you-fat/

I gather this study was also on a nutrition show the other day. So I'm trying to keep off the fizzy water too. It's to with carbon dioxide and ghrelin from what I understand.

I have totally fallen off the wagon today - as said upthread, I was freezing, shattered, and wondered if I was sickening for something so I have just had a full dinner and plan early bed. Just hope I don't wake up with flu or something tomorrow!! Meh.

I was fasting today and ready to have dinner when dh walked in with a very unhealthy takeaway so I've had a very unhealthy meal and a can of coke zero nutrition. Will try FD tomorrow with a boiled egg or something for breakfast ....

Ah purple- your husband sounds the same as mine. He does this all the time.

As much as it’s a lovely thought and don’t get me wrong it is. I ended up having to have words with mine as it was happening twice a week. And he would not take no for a answer.