5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi all

De-lurking after a couple of years... I was on the boards before I became pregnant with DD2 (there were a wave of Mumsnet 5:2 thread pregnancies at the time). She's now 3(!) and although I've been lurking on this thread, I've never lost that last half stone of baby weight. According to BMI I'm just over a stone overweight (11stone 3, 5 feet 3). I'm really motivated now, have just started a new job. My previous job had the best work restaurant so all good intentions were scuppered daily. Now I'm somewhere without a canteen where I take my own food so I'm completely in control which is fab. I have no problems with FDs but BigChoc / TiP I was hoping to pick your brains on exercise...

I've always been a little overweight but fit until I had children, lots of running.

My DM was practically anorexic in her 20s but is my body shape and is now pretty overweight. Her DM was the same too. She's probably a 16 now at 72 and my nana was probably an 18 for the last few years of her life. My DM has just had a knee replacement, a foot operation, has a femeral nerve problem so is fairly immobile which is sad because she was a good walker.

I'm desperate to avoid all this and am 40 so it seems a good time to get on with it.

So weightloss is one thing and I think that's in my control. I'd love some advice on exercise.

Realistically, with the children I can probably exercise 3 times a week out of the house. I was thinking a swim before work once a week, pilates once a week and a run once a week. I'm sure I should do some weight work which ideally I'd need to do at home. I've done a few body coach videos which use your own weight and I enjoy those. With childcare and other commitments that DH and I have, I don't think I'll be able to get out to do any more exercise. Except, thinking about it, there a tiny gym at my new place which costs £70 a year - I could do weights there twice a week for 29 minutes in my lunch break....

I've completely highjacked this, hope you don't mind but I'm interested in your thoughts for preventing problems long term.... Thanks! Let me know if I should repost this on an exercise thread.

Hi Cheshire, if you struggle to get out of the house have you considered any form of exercise at home? When mine was small I used to stream YouTube workouts to the tv. Random things like yoga, Pilates, Zumba even belly dancing. It’s amazing what’s on there. Sorry if it’s a daft idea.

Bug it’s not a almost hyperactive feeling is it?

Hi Quakking, not a daft idea at all. I do Body Coach videos on YouTube and have done 30 day shred in the past. They do fit in well with my lifestyle. And when the girls join in I burn lots of calories from laughing, watching them try to keep up (they're 6 and 3..!).

Hi Cheshire
Welcome back
Bodyweight is your friend : the good old Jillean Michaels Shred can still be done at home, as can Yoga with Adrienne
and then make a point of standing up as much as you can,
balance on one foot while washing up
run up the stairs rather than walk
its those stupid things that will ramp up your TDEE and muscle tone
you need to become a fidgeter
turn your heating down a tad
turn it right down in bedrooms
make it so you need to move around

quacking not hyperactive, no. More like anxious and sickly. Hmm. May just stick to decaf when I'm out and about - my body is telling me something so I should probably listen

May do a FD tomorrow but will see how overnight with DD goes first. She has her first bad cold after a grand total of 2.5hrs of nursery and has a very sad little tired cry

Welcome back, cheshire

I recommend adding some weights to build strength and help firm up flabby bits
Your work gym is excellent value for £70 annually and since it's on site, you can make it part of your workday routine.
Keeps you away from the lunch & latte crowd

On FDs especially, fasted lifting boosts fat-burning and can help your shape

bug Coffee shops often have much higher caffeine - and maybe larger cups too - than many folk have at home.
However, 5:2ers have sometimes found that their tolerance for things like alcohol, caffeine has reduced a lot
Maybe try some green / peppermint tea instead ?

Sounds a good FD, slinky
and you've a good FD plan for tomorrow, blossom

tip your opinion of running !

I find running totally boring, even outside, so I only do occasional sprint intervals, for literally 2 minutes, with a warmup and cooldown jog.

I enjoy walking though, because I find it so relaxing - I had a lovely 15 mins cool-down walk today after my free weights.
Also, on my training rest days - Mondays & Thursdays - (if it's not raining when I get up) I walk into work instead of cycling
4km each way, so ideal for stretching my legs, but not tiring.

cheshire Lots of exercise info too in the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #33* OP or post there for more tailored advice & support

Lamb - they are awesome aren’t they? I love all the stats. So pleased with it!

Cheshire - there are so many of us on here who are 5’3”. Very strange! I am forty in a couple of months. Re exercise, weights at home is a good idea. I also use YouTube for home workouts if I need them. It’s good because you can keep a lot of variety as there are so many.

Hi everyone ! I've been lurking around for a while and have finally plucked up the courage - and commitment!- to join.

I've got a five month old and have about a stone and a half to lose, and completed my first fast day today. It was actually pretty tough if I'm very honest but I did manage it so I'm encouraged!

A couple of questions I had if anyone has the time to answer ! So I just went in the tde website to calculate my average calorie count for non fast days and it was around 1700 calories. I'm pretty sure I eat much less than this on a normal day so how come I'm not losing weight without the fast days ?

Also, Although I found 500 calories a day quite difficult, I think I'd find 1000 calories a day a breeze, so if I did 1000 Calories a day every day, would I still lose weight since my tde is 1700 and my goal weight tde is 1500?

Thanks everyone. Fidgeting is a good tip (if you'll excuse the pun). I'm the opposite, will perch or lean on anything rather than stand...

I'll book a visit to the (tiny) gym.

BCF, out of interest what weights are you lifting?

I have gained a pound.

Pretty pissed off but not giving up.

I am also 5 3!!

Blossom keep with it we all have weird weigh ins like that sometimes. It should catch up with you soon.

Been following 5:2 BSD this week (2 days fasting, but following the BSD principles upto TDEE) not one piece of junk, starchy carbs, or Pepsi max have touched my lips and I’ve been using MFP and scales for everything I’m 3.8 lbs down this week.
In two weeks that makes it 9.4 lbs and I’m just 4.7 lbs from target.

Thanks quacking.

I'm at my highest weight for two years and for 6 months of that I wasn't even doing 5:2 so it just seems a bitter pill to swallow to see those numbers after two solid fds, two gym sessions and running 20km in the previous week.

Blossom is it your first week back/ first week?

Yes last week was my first week back doing 5:2

I did relax at the weekend but overall deffo had a calorie deficit to what I had been doing before..

Hold tight then blossom, keep going until next week try not to be disappointed I know it’s hard. Your body should catch up.

Will do! Thanks for the encouragement. Great to be able to come on here and moan, wouldn't want to bore anyone in real life iyswim..

Hi Juicy- welcome. Re 100 cals every day- not a good idea as your body will adjust to expect only that amount and stop losing weight. Fasting keeps your body guessing and so your metabolism doesn’t slow down. Btw are you 5’3”? If not you can’t join

Lamb- it will show next week. Whenever I start a diet my first week is a rubbish loss. Weird because it’s the opposite for most!

juicy I advise you stick to 5:2, with 2 fast days
Most folk find it takes 2-3 weeks to get used to fasting, so be patient

If you are finding FDs tough, fasting variants:

1. try 800 FDs, at least to start
2. or try 1000 FDs on Mon+Wed+Fri On either variant, keep within TDEE on NFDs

Why you were not losing on your old diet_

• Even if your old diet averages below 1700 cals every day, it is probably not by much
  (and in reality it may average 1700 or higher)
  Many folk cannot lose on a small daily deficit, because their body can easily compensate for 200-300 cals
  For evolutionary reasons, the body has many mechanisms to compensate for reduced food

• Dr Michelle Harvie's research and human trials of 2 FDs found that it produced more weight loss, more waist loss and less overall hunger than standard diets with daily calorie reduction.
  she also wrote that other research showed some women (hard losers) need 830 cals daily deficit - not the classic 400 or 500 daily deficit- on standard diets to lose

• The contrast of swapping between TDEE and FDs keeps your body guessing, so it doesn't adapt over the longterm
  If you've genuinely been doing much less than TDEE daily for months, then your metabolism may have dialled down to resist losing fat

Why daily 1000 is not a good idea
Although you might find 1000 cals ok the first few days, done daily it would be more of a VLCD
So you would probably soon feel starving if you did this every day, if you ate "normal" food, not the low cab Mediterranean of Mosely"s BSD
5:2 keeps hunger to 2 days instead of every day for weeks.

Intermittent fasting is getting low enough cals on a few days to force your body to burn mostly fat for fuel, but not doing it long enough to dial back metabolism

Also, "normal" 1000 cals might not give enough nutrients if done for weeks on end
and you would not learn how to eat once the diet ends

These reasons are why on standard VLCDs on "normal food", people usually crash out or regain very quickly

blossom That sounds a temporary blip, due to undigested food, water retention etc which can actually hide a 1lb loss
You need to look at the loss over 2-3 weeks, which should iron out blips.

Also, sometimes e first step is to put the breaks on gaining, before you can lose
Did the weight gain happen during your "normal WOL", i.e. your 6 months not doing 5:2

Most folk do lose a fair bit the first 2-3 weeks,
so if you / any else don't see a loss in that time, consider this:

• Are your FDs free of junky / sugary food and totally free of alcohol ?
  Did you unconsciously add back exercise cals, or guess on 1 or 2 FDs ?
  Best to plan and mfp FDs in advance, to check
  Eating ad hoc/ unplanned on FDs usually exceeds the 500

• Are you eating back the FD deficit on NFDs ?
  Eating to appetite when you run long distances can do this

• Exercise doesn't burn as many extra cals as you think, especially if your body has adapted to it

• adaptation to use fewer cals is particularly easy for your bod wrt long runs

Top athletes train a ton, but top women athletes at least have to be very strict about how much they eat and drink, to stay lean.

Calculate your TDEE at one exercise level below what you think (Mosely's advice)
Mfp for one week, to check you have a good weekly calorie deficit (i.e 3000 say below 7xTDEE)

• Check the type of cals you are consuming
  Exercisers can often get away with eating a lot of crap and boozing - until suddenly they can't

• Ditto wrt losing weight
  Your body may let you cycle normal eating for several months and then drop a stone or so in a diet, then return to normal eating .....
  BUT
  resistance to weight loss - often insulin resistance - is dependent on the total time you have been at a significantly higher weight
  Eventually, your body resists dropping from this higher weight, because it is starting to become a set point

==> It's OK to feast at Xmas and summer, but if this is your normal WOE then it usually catches up with you eventually
Outside occasional feasts, keep to NHS alcohol guidelines and be sensible about NFD treats - and keep to this in maintenance

Wow bigchoc thank you very much for such a detailed reply. That really helps to explain things and I've taken a screen shot so I can refer back to it.
Where you say my metabolism may have adjusted to my lower calorie intake and hence no weight loss, will fasting reverse that do you think ? I hope so!
I think I'll stick with the 3 fast days as I'd originally planned so Sunday, Tuesday and Friday and see how it goes for the first week. Then adjust if need be accordingly.
peachy I'm afraid I'm not part of the 5'3 club I'm 5'6 (and a half) .. Somewhat over the required height for access to the VIP lounge

Thanks BCF - I was just a bit staggered as the weight gain occurred in the week I had the calorie deficit - having not gained to this point before with NO deficit.

Will keep on keeping on.