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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2017 19:34

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2018 11:31

Well done on your SV, purple
You tackled holiday gain immediately, so it came off very quickly.

AW: Why you may look like you weigh less

  1. Body composition:
  • You have a higher than (today's) average % muscle in your weight Muscle is denser than fat, so 1lb muscle is smaller than 1lb fat

Hence, those who exercise intensely, especially lifting, often weigh more than expected from appearance
btw, 5:2 / IF has been shown to improve body composition by increasing the % muscle, even when exercise has not noticeably increased
This is why 5:2ers often report looking "smaller" at a particular weight than they did in the past - and fitting into smaller clothes

A higher % muscle is good for health - studies show it correlates with better health and longevity

  1. Body shape Broader shoulders with slim waist tend to make people look slimmer than someone of the same weight with bigger waist.

BUT
"big bones" affecting weight significantly is a myth

  1. People have different skeleton frames, which can be roughly classified into small / medium / large by checking wrist diameter This is about 15% / 70% / 15% respectively over the population

This is roughly how healthy weight is distributed

Bone: men 15%; women 10%
Muscle: men 45%; women 37%
Organs: men and women: 25%
Fat: men 15%; women 28% (varies with age)

(ntbo, those with excess fat have a higher % fat)

A naturally wide skeletal won't increase total mass by much from that 10%.
Even if it were 12% for a very broad skeleton, that extra 2% is only 1.2 kg for a 60kg woman

  1. People who are obese, or who have heavy muscle mass , do have femurs (thigh bone) with a larger cross-section, hence heavier mass https://news.ncsu.edu/2011/03/wms-ross-femur/

This is probably due to the loading on the bone.

When people who lose fat, their femurs probably don't reduce in volume to those of a lifelong lean person, especially if they comtinue to do weight-bearing exercise.

BUT The average weight of the femur for an adult woman is only 260g !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2018 11:33

Well done on your SV too, carfish
You're on your way to the 9 stone somethings Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2018 11:37

I'm having an FD today. Anyone else ? Hmm

Off to the gym shortly for fasted free weights, heavy
My meal will be early evening: tuna, boiled egg & a big mixed salad, with water melon for dessert

OP posts:
slinkyme · 14/01/2018 11:50

I'm with you today BCF

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2018 12:16

We'll encourage each other, slinky Smile
Back after gym

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 14/01/2018 13:14

Thanks all

Well done carfish!

BCF I'm afraid the muscles don't apply to me - I don't have any. My body fat is ridiculous , over 30% last time I checked. I need to work on that next.

I'm starting Pilates tomorrow night!

quackingduck222 · 14/01/2018 14:12

Well done carfish! If your goal weight 10 or a smidge under? If so your so close now.

Another run under my belt today that makes just over 15M in 2 weeks and just less than 10 to go.

TMI but can any runners help me out here, I spent much of my run today retrieving pants out my bum Blush any good suggestions on how to avoid this?

Fionne · 14/01/2018 14:30

BCF, I’m having a fast day and I’m using a menu from the 8 week eating plan to help me. It’s easier this way.

Bestbees · 14/01/2018 15:28

Quacking, dont wear pants? I often just wear my running leggings with nothing underneath. Blush

quackingduck222 · 14/01/2018 15:58

Best - is that the done thing? I did think earlier that could be better idea but wondered if it would irritate or I’d just end up with leggings up my bum insteadGrin

Iamblossom · 14/01/2018 16:01

quacking I ran 10km this morning again - I wear thongs, no way I could run in anything else...

Don't know if you like dance music but the best running album I have ever bought is Pure Running 2017.

And I found these beauties in primark this week they are sooooo comfortable...

5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2
Iamblossom · 14/01/2018 16:44

[quickly adds that I do wear other clothes as well as a thong and these socks]

quackingduck222 · 14/01/2018 16:50

Blossom Grin I wear very similar socks to that as they are so comfy.

Well done on your 10k again this week that’s amazing.

I will have to check out that album as I’m in desperate need for some new music. Thanks

purpleviolet1 · 14/01/2018 17:32

You guys are putting me to shame with your running! Blush

TalkinPeace · 14/01/2018 17:39

purple
I do not run. Not even in the warmup in a gym class. Not even for last orders at the pub.
But I do swim a lot and do a huge amount of yoga Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2018 17:47

Back from the gym after fasted lifting and sauna
A cold cycle ride home, so instead of salad I'm having chilli, chickpeas, tomatoes and quinoa
(it's 6:45 pm in Germany, so just right for supper)

How are you doing on your FD, slinky, Fionne ?

Yes Fionne, if you find menu-plans helpful, those in the BSD book are perfect for the 800 cal FDs on 5:2 BSD

OP posts:
peachypips · 14/01/2018 18:23

Hi all,
Been a good weekend food-wise with my new Fitbit really helping me log my calories and stay within TDEE. I absolutely love it- it’s really made me move more. I am pretty good at ‘doing’ exercise but as I am at my desk a lot I don’t move enough outside of my exercise programme. I’ve gone out for a walk every lunchtime this week.

I run too. Have had to shrink my distances a lot though as I have piriformis syndrome.

I personally have to wear underwear when running as I need a tiny bit of help from Mrs Tena!

slinkyme · 14/01/2018 18:28

Hi BCF managed fast day so so far. Survived on a couple of cups of tea and one miso soup until 6pm. The mammoth ironing pile has kept me busy and apart from the 11am cravings for toast I have almost forgotten about fasting whilst busy ironing and watching tv. Just broke fast with a small portion of penne with vegetable heavy tomato sauce. Feel satisfied. Now just to stay on water and herbal tea till the end of the day.

Oh and TOM finally arrived after several false starts last few days.

Hope you all have had a good day.

quackingduck222 · 14/01/2018 18:34

Well done Peachy, glad you love your Fitbit,.

Well done on your FD slinky, what does miso soup taste like?

Iamblossom · 14/01/2018 18:34

Thinking ahead to my fd tomorrow. Am working from home. Will avoid breakfast pangs by walking dog 8-9.

Planning coffee and water in the morning.

Have an hour of yoga at lunchtime.

Will eat 2 boiled eggs at about 3.

Will have chicken noodle soup with rice cakes at about 7, and a 0% Greek yog with blueberries and an options hot choc.

And go to bed early.

Hoping to come on here tomorrow evening and say this has all gone to plan!

Iamblossom · 14/01/2018 18:34

I really like miso soup, have added to shopping list.

Iamblossom · 14/01/2018 18:35

I absolutely LOVE my fit bit blaze.

Iamblossom · 14/01/2018 18:36

Made nigella's cheesy leek pasta bake for my sons this evening and Jamie's pannetone bread and butter pudding for their afters so will have to avoid dipping a spoon into those leftovers tomorrow!!!

HLBug · 14/01/2018 18:47

I'm having this really bizarre problem at the moment when I have a strong coffee - it's making me feel really agitated and anxious, my stomach does flip flops and I feel a bit sick for the rest of the day. Doesn't happen at home but does when I'm out in a cafe/restaurant. I'm wondering if my vast reduction in caffeine overall (chocolate, fizzy drinks, posh lattes etc) has made me more intolerant? Or if it's just an empty stomach thing? Anyone have any ideas?

slinkyme · 14/01/2018 18:50

Love miso soup. This time round bought a jar of miso paste from the Chinese supermarket. Worked out much cheaper than the sachets of miso soup from Sainsbury's. Basically dissolved one teaspoon of the paste in boiling water. It was delicious and really kept the hunger at bay. Will be a staple for every fast day. And if I have calculated correctly was only 16 calories.