5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

That's amazing, Mship. Half a stone makes more difference than I realised.

MShip your bum has disappeared! Fantastic NSV and great pics

LightsOn - why don't you try 16:8 in conjunction with 5:2. It's really working for me. I personally do have a couple of coffees in my 16:8 window but do not eat in the time at all.

I've been at the top of my TDEE last couple of days. Did need to increase them as I was falling short every day. Still keeping to the 16:8 window and finding it's working well. Have gained a pound but I think that was to be expected.

Mentally I'm feeling a lot happier now that I've found my rhythm and determined not to regain it all this time.

FD here today and still working towards those last 4 pesky pounds.

mship, your bottom has shrunk. Mind you, you still have a massive solar body for a head.
quckingduck22, I will join you with the 5:2 and 16:8 combo.

Hi, I embarked on 16:8 a week ago, but having read some of this thread I'm wondering whether I will actually be able to lose any weight on it?
I am actually finding 16:8 a challenge as I tend to have late night snacks and eat breakfast early with the kids, so would normally have only an 8-9 hour gap between my last snack and breakfast!
I'm also breastfeeding (baby just turned one) and have disturbed sleep and eat when I'm tired to pep up my energy.
I've gained weight through frequent tired snacks and huge portions.
I've cut down on carbs (only occasional rye bread not normal bread, no grains except quinoa and buckwheat), which I think helps, but I'm not sure if it is enough.
I have 15kg to lose.
The problem is that I tried 5:2 just after the BBC show aired years ago pre kids and I found it awful. On my fast days I was shaky, headaches, couldn't concentrate at work, thinking about food all day. This was when I was having a full nights sleep and I only had a few kg to lose! I stopped after a few weeks as it was so awful. So whilst I'm really interested in the IF science and think it sounds sensible I'm not sure if I can do 5:2!
If I'm eating less than I usually would on 16:8 will I lose weight slowly, or just maintain?
I seem to feel dreadful without eating regularly. Friends who try IF say they feel amazing after a few days, lots of energy, not hungry. If I don't eat for a few hours I feel crap! Will this improve (when?!) or is this just not suited to me for some reason?

Btw on 16:8 I am squeezing in three meals, with one smaller than usual
Yesterday I had
8.45 three eggs scrambled with onions and peppers with olive oil and seeds
10 snack handful strawberries
12.45 from a market - small portion of Indian curries with quinoa (although curry this was a posh healthy veggie curry stall not local tandoori so I hoped not too calorific)
15.00 snack one babybel
16.30 yoghurt with stewed rhubarb and half apple stewed with seeds on top

Although written down I can see it is quite a lot of food for someone trying to lose, I felt on the edge of feeling lousy yesterday - I was snappy with kids, grumpy, impatient, walking slowly and feeling a little bit woozy.

Good luck with it LightsOn. Il be keeping a eye out for your losses.

I had a great FD yesterday came in at 478 calories and spent all day cleaning and not a measly ounce off.

My DH been accidentally doing 16:8 most days. He didn't know it was a thing but eats when I eat and his breaks are late at work. He's also reduced his carb intake but hasn't gone over completely to a med diet but has managed to loose 10lbs in 2 months. He's a very athletic build with a low starting BMI. And is nearly back to his weight from 10 years ago. He said previously he would love to be that weight again as he gained about a stone over the years but didn't think it was at all possible. Without changing his diet much he's done amazing well.

Good luck to all the fasters today.

My period came today and took me by surprise. I feel bloated and huge. Yuck. Yesterday's fast day went well though.

That's impressive re your DH quacking, he must feel good

I'm on a FD today and need to go into a very lovely bakery in town to pick up a birthday cake for DM's birthday on Saturday...wish me luck resisting all temptation!!

MrsKnicker have you used My Fitness Pall (or similar) to calculate your intake? Lots of good tips on this thread about foods that keep you feeling fuller for longer. Glasses of water and cups of tea also help keep me going It must be hard if you're breastfeeding too though - I'm sure BCF can tell you the suggested amount of calories for breastfeeding mamas to get started. I hope this time 5:2 and/or 16:8 works for you.

Hello everyone! I've not visited the thread for a while due to general hecticness and I've not had a chance to catch up on all the posts yet. Hope everyone is doing well and pulling in the SVs and NSVs!

Things are going ok with me. Had a great SV a couple of days ago when a friend I'd not seen for ages noticed that I'd lost weight and said I looked 'fab'! I had to give her a big hug!

I'm on my 2nd fd of the week today. I'm having a small m&s salad for lunch and will be making a Goan fish curry for tea. Hang in there all those fasting today!

Hi missludgate and MrsKnicker ! Great news on the decreased stress levels Bug , I didn't know that was a IF side effect. Definitely find this WOE less stressful in the sense that I'm not counting calories all the time and feeling guilty about everything. That is a really powerful benefit of 5:2 for me, I used to feel like food / calories was all I thought about.

A 1lb down today, thank goodness! I am only back to where I was the week before last but at least it's going in the right direction. Saves me from having a massive hissy fit and forcing myself to go on MFP for a couple of weeks . Have planned the weekend ahead so we are having some nice fresh cooked food that will be enjoyable and balanced (hopefully!). Did quite well last weekend on controlling bad habits and that needs to continue - in that sense a NFD presents more of a challenge for me than a FD, especially if I have free time.

Good luck any Thursday fasters!

Welcome, MrsKnicker
As a BFer, you can have 1000 calories on FDs - try this with 3 meals and see how you feel.
It may take a 2-3 weeks for your body to adapt to fasting.

On both FDs and NFDs, and on 16:8, we strongly recommend NO snacking

Even "healthy" snacks keep insulin levels raised, which hinders fat-burning and soon increases hunger again.
Late night snacking especially stores the excess calories as fat, because you are not moving around to have a chance of burning them off.

In particular avoid snacking onsweets or even fruit on its own, because the sugar really spikes insulin and sets up hunger spirals

Have any snack as part of a meal.

If you still can't manage FDs, then 16:8 would wor
This still requires a weekly calorie deficit though.
Also, you would find 14:10 easier, i.e. a 10 hour eating window, e.g. 8am to 6 pm
Again, eat meals, no snacks between.

I suggest you try either 5:2 or 14:10 for 2 weeks without counting cals on NFDs, then review
If you are losing weight, just carry on like that

If you aren't, then calculate TDEE with activity set at sedentary (unless you exercise regularly, or walk at least 1k daily)
mfp for just one week and check if you have a weekly calorie deficit, to lose.

Lovely compliments NSV, Gold

Well done on a good FD, duck and great SV for your DH, starting already lean and rolling back the years

Well done on your SV too, Merricat
You've hauled back the gain from the heavy social weeks and you can now resume progress to goal.

I recommend you learn to pamper or entertain yourself with non-food treats:
e.g. new nail colour, new book or film, listen / dance to new music, theatre, join an exciting gym class /join choir, explore different shops, explore new walks, soaking in bubble bath with spa mask & candles ....

ouch Almost all women retain a few lb water during totm
Just try to avoid the form munchies and then this water should go after the first FD following end of totm, along with maybe the usual 1lb lost fat for the week.

It's ok BCF, I feel so sick with period pains I have no desire to eat at all

Thanks for the advice bigchoc.

Strangely enough today I've felt ok without eating much.
I had breakfast at 8.45 and haven't needed to eat anything since. Plan to have a big (but healthy) meal in the next hour or so.
Maybe something has clicked?

Hi everyone

Wasn't intending to fast today (not in the fasting head space after missing my usual day yesterday) but have been aiming for healthy and light and just worked out I have eaten 500 calories up until now so wondering if I could manage on water and black tea for the rest of the day and do my fast this way?! Will let you know how it goes. Would be nice to maintain momentum. Lost 0.25 lbs this morning will take that as it brings me within whispering distance of 10 st 2 lbs plus it has been TOTM so might lose more after today.

Just catching up - wow MShip amazing body shape changes! Well done and well done to everyone else too

ouch I'm so glad all that totm palaver is many years behind me !

Did it! Had a boiled egg before bed but still stayed under 600 cals. Maybe spontaneous midday FDs are the way to go for my breakfast-minded brain!

Now at 10st 2lbs, overall weight loss of 7lbs and overall inch loss of 1.5 to waist and 1.5 to hips plus 4 inches off my stomach . Obviously this is all after a FD but downward trend. Very happy.

Good luck to any Friday fasters. I am going to try and kickstart some exercise this weekend to mitigate against the impact of a planned boxy night out.

*boozy not boxy!

Difficult 2nd fast day yesterday but week 1 weigh in this morning shows a 4lb loss! Super pleased though I know that'll be a good bit of water weight.

Great to read the weeks SVs and NSVs and good luck to all the Friday fasters

Hi all, FD today, first one in absolute ages. Wish me luck

Fire 4lbs is awesome regardless, well done!

wiggle good luck!

Morning! I've managed to catch up on some of the thread now! Amazing body shape changes MShip! You must be very chuffed. And we'll done on your unplanned fd Sarah - I think they must be the most satisfying of all FDs!

SV here - weigh-in this morning and I'm down to 9st12. I don't think I've been that weight since my wedding day! That's a total of 1.5 stone off since starting 5:2 in May. My original goal was 10st but I think I'm going to keep going until we go on holiday on 12th Aug and then providing I don't put loads on then will consider maintenance plan when I return. I'm 5"9 so don't want to lose too much more or I'll look lanky but do feel like a have a bit more flab to get off yet.

Good luck all those fasting today!