5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thank you for all the excellent and well researched advice, BCF! I think I'll be ok, then, going on as I am, for a while. The no wheat/gluten free/dairy free dietary restrictions mean I simply can't have quite a lot of that stuff. I'm also a very light drinker, teetotal most weeks.

Closed the kitchen on 611kcal last night, a good FD. The stuffed peppers were delicious.

I got the pattern for my new summer dress adjusted (have to add room in the bodice as I have a very full bust), made a mock-up with leftover fabric, and it fits! I'm going to start cutting the pieces from the actual dress fabric tonight. My measurements have come down 3 inches all around (bust, waist, hips) since I made my first attempt at modifying the pattern two months ago. It's very exciting, I haven't had a properly fitting summer dress since my early teens. I've deliberately cut a little snug as motivation to keep going, though I hardly need it, the scales are down to 14st8.8 today.

As I've been struggling to get upto my TDEE within 2 meals a day I've made a conscious effort to use MFP to try and gradually bring the calories up.

I've been adding extra cals to my lunch in forms of seeds and natural yoghurt (into my blender when making a protein shake) and a piece of cheese with my evening meal.

I'm doing more fitness ATM and burning the extra calories I've added off but I suppose it's a step in the right direction and weights not increased since doing so, so that's a bonus.

I'm quite a goal inspired person I never usually quite get there but as I'm nearly at target I need to look into something fitness wise to keep me going, and something to aim for.

BCF you suggest adding low GI carbs to meals. Beans, lentils and peas. I'm interested in how to incorporate that into a meal? I would on a typical day eat turkey / chicken and veggies or salmon / tuna with salad and eggs and once a fortnight a steak.

The oily fish you mention would tuna be part of that?

Well done on your NSV Mship. 3 inches is loads.

We'll done on your SV and inches NSV, Mship
That's exciting for you, a dress fitting just the way you want it.

duck Just add the beans, lentils or peas to your main meal, either as an accompaniment, or mixed in with a stew or curry.
I expect a more creative than I (not a high hurdle !) can post recipes if you want.
Try adding hummus to your salad
Or half an avocado - helps boost veg / fruit

Importants: Are you eating enough veg & fruit ?
Aim for at least 5 portions of different veg per day - usually about 80g - plus 1 x fruit
The recommended is 7 portions veg, but that is difficult in practice (!)

You do NOT need any more protein, so you could increase healthy fats and starchy carbs too, as I posted
Go for the full-fat Greek yoghurt, especially on NFDs, as your pud with fruit
Tuna is not an oily fish.
Oily fish: salmon, mackerel, sardines

These are additions - not substituting for something else - so will increase your NFD calories as you want.

With the food you describe, I'm surprised your NFDs aren't already around your TDEE, because you have described a good combination of foods - tiny portions ?
Is the protein shake a minimeal, or part of another meal ?
Nothing to stop you having 3 meals if you prefer, btw.

One healthy trick: drizzle olive oil on salads or to bake root veg / Mediterranean veg. Yum.

I have a list of healthy high cal food, but those I haven't yet mentioned would all raise your protein quite a bit, which sounds quite high already.

Hi everyone. I am out and about today so I had M and S protein pot (egg, spinach and smoked salmon - 102 calories) and an M and S cauliflower salad thing (@120 calories) . Didn't look a lot but was very filling and made a nice change. Going to get something else pre-packaged for tea.

NFD yesterday was fine. I reckon I have Monday - Thursday sorted and then it all goes to pot! Learning so much on this thread and MFP definitely helping to educate me - I used to bemoan how much weight I was putting on when I thought I was eating healthy food but I now realise I was kidding myself!

I think today has been my biggest NSV for me yet. I desperately needed new jeans as I was wearing a pair I bought last year that were a size 12. When I started 5:2 again this year it was because I was busting out of them and had to use a hair tie around the button as they wouldn't do up. Size 10 was too big. I bought a size 8. I have NEVER been a size 8 on the bottom I am so shocked.

BCF I don't eat enough veg no. I love peppers and have usually around 400g with 1/2 onion and chicken a lot. A large salad.
Maximum I have is 3 portions of veg and 100g of berrys.
I now measure out my full fat Greek yoghurt as I love it so much I can easily consume a large 500ml tub a day.

Protein is some days really on the high side yes. I use whey protein on work out days and pop it in the blender with berrys , Greek yoghurt, seeds, milk and water.

If I'm not working out I have the same smoothie without the whey powder or some ham, eggs and tomatoes.

I don't think my portions are tiny but as I've not been having
High GI carbs I think this is where the missing calories are.

Will try adding some beans and lentils next time I go shopping.

Sarah - if weekends you struggle with food wise have you tried a FD?

Saturday was my weakness as I used to binge when everyone was out of the house so I changed my FD to midweek and Saturday and it's a game changer as I don't binge Saturday and Sunday I don't want to undo the hrs work of the Saturday

I knew you were going to suggest that BCF! I think it would be very difficult in practice as we tend to have stuff on/social events. But the idea is there floating about...I definitely need to take your advice on board about treats being on a 5:2 basis too. And I have been trying to limit what I drink at weekends as that contributes to a cycle of binging the next day (apart from all the empty calories in the alcohol). I have been thinking about maybe doing 16:8 on the weekends and not eating breakfast.

qucking that is amazing!

Congrats on your first ever size 8, duck ! < you are entitled to dance a little jig >

I recommend you concentrate on boosting veg and add say a daily apple or kiwi
With your eggs & tomatoes, try swapping out the ham for spinach - you don't need double protein

My usual salad is piled onto a BIG plate, then max 100g protein on top, with olive oil & vinegar / lemon.
Like you, I have 3 colours of yummy peppers, plus typically :
baby spinach, grated white & red cabbage, tomato, radish, spring onions, celery, cucumber, beetroot, kidney beans, olives, grated carrot !
I often add chunks of fruit to salad - I have discovered celery, walnut & watermelon is a delicious combination to add.

Even on workout days, you don't need whey protein in your shake, because you are already consuming high protein.

It's usually more filling for the calories to have a meal, rather than a shake.
However, you can sneak in more veg & fruit, if you find shakes easier
Google will show many recipes for "green" smoothies or Lassi with e.g. baby spinach / kale and 2 fruit types.

sarah Do you have social events Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday usually ?
Tricky if so, because whatever you do on the other 4 days is unlikely to compensate for 3 days feasting.

Suggestions:

• If usually one of these days has nothing booked, then plan a "regular" weekend FD, which may be Fri / Sat / Sun, whichever is free
• On a feast day, try having only 2 meals: a green salad with boiled egg / small chicken breast / smoked salmon and then your main feast meal. Or even fast until that main meal.

Usually socialising Friday/Saturday even just at home with friends or family. Coming to realise how much of that centres on food and alcohol. Sunday a possibility but even then far more temptation than during the working week: Like your second suggestion more - thinking ahead and doing a mini fast before a feast. Thank you! I am going to a friend's tomorrow and she always prepares delicious food, I am driving so I won't drink and I will just eat a light breakfast/lunch.

Post FD weigh in Week 4 and I have maintained at 10 st 3 (total loss of 6lbs). Happy with that. Would love to shift another 3lbs before holiday mid August so need to start that HIIT training!

FD for me today. My third one. Feel a bit aprehensive because my last one was a struggle but i am going to spread my calories out a bit more today which should help.

Can i ask for some help on NFD please? I do not have an ED. But i do have an unhealthy relationship with food and emotional eating. I have been a fair bit better with that recently, but the last two days (NFD) I have found myself mindlessly shovelling chocolate biscuits and crisps down. Its scared me a bit. I am hoping its a little blip as i readjust to this WOE. But does anyone have any advice or experience woth this? I worry that this new WOE will spark off some out of control eating on my NFD.

I have tried mfp to put me off eating extra but it just goes out the window.

wonderwoo, I did that when I first started 5:2. I had to train myself out of it and using MFP helped as it made me think about whether I really wanted to eat it. I am still prone to eating when I'm stressed or tired but I'm trying to eat more fruit as opposed to unhealthier / massively calorific foods. But now I'm at least eating smaller portions of treats when I do eat them.

Finally made it into the 10 stone boundary, albeit its 10'9. Clothes are getting looser on me with trousers and skirts being worn around my hips as they're way too loose on the waist. I have definitely dropped a dress size in many brands.

However I don't want to buy any new clothes until I know where I'm going to settle weight-wise. I still have around 17 lbs to go to reach target weight. Have resigned myself to some months of looking less than ideal in clothes that are too big for me.

Is anyone 5'8 and around 135 lbs? If so, what dress size are you? I have a medium frame and athletic body type so I'm never going to be super skinny.

Thank you Crocus. Thats is very reassuring. I will persevere. I just hate feeling out of control!

Congratulations on your SV and NSV!

Qucking - congratulations on the new jeans and Croaking well done on making it into the 10s!!

Wonder - I think most of us can relate to emotional eating/binge eating and the way I deal with it now is simply not to buy them in the first place. I have a mug which says "I can't sleep if there's a cream cake in the fridge" and this slogan sums me up perfectly.

FD for me today. Have a good day everyone.

Congrats on your SV and clothes NSV, crocus
Yes, it saves money to wait until your are near target !

wrt clothes:
5:2 is excellent at retaining muscle, but burning fat, especially around the waist.
This means many folk say they are a smaller size at the same weight than they used to be.

An athletic figure usually means broad shoulders, which helps makes the lower body look slimmer

Yes I definitely have wider shoulders and narrower hips & skinny legs. Even with a (slightly) overweight BMI I had thigh and calf gaps. All my excess weight is carried around the stomach.

Thanks so much BCF for the advice I will give your ideas a go. I think in terms of veg I've still got a way to go but in terms of what I was eating I'm getting better. My idea of veg was opening a tin of mushy peas or baked beans before my restart.

Got upto 1200 cals yesterday and my weight still remains the same so I am pleased about that. Was worried if my calories increased my weight would too.

FD here today anyone else?

Croaking - what a amazing achievement getting into the 10s.

I'd say in your new clothes wait as long as physically possible and use belts. I was always told 10-14 lbs per clothes size but as I've found out recently it's not. It's inches lost and where you have lost them.

I bought cropped trousers a month ago in a smaller size. Tight when I bought them, not lost much since then but inches on my bottom half have decreased quite a bit. Only worn them twice and they are now too big and I've dropped into the next size down.

A couple of years ago I bought lots of new clothes in my desired size and they never fit I never quite made it so they all went off the the charity shop all new with tags. I don't think it helps that all sizes seem different in each shop.

Personally If you need new, get a few bits to tidy you over and have a lovely shopping trip once you've got to your target

woo Some people find, especially if they have been on other diets a lot, that because nothing is "banned" on NFDs, they tend to binge the first few weeks. However, this is normally temporary.

Let's try to tackle this, as it can stop weight loss dead and we all usually binge on unhealthy junk rather than on broccoli:

Possible causes:

• Caffeine withdrawal can cause bingeing - if you have given up coffee / caffeine, this is not the time, unless it has been advised by your GP.
• If you have given up smoking - brilliant ! - much worse than bingeing. It's worth it.
• Your meals are too high GI / unstable blood sugar

Tactics to avoid binges:

• As granny said: do NOT buy any junk - no one else in the house "needs" it, either.
  Donate any unopened packets to the food bank and bin the rest
  Get your family's support - (you are worried about your teeth & skin)

• mfp: Even if you binge, making yourself record each biscuit / weighing chips first often helps

• Drink water and clean your teeth as soon as you finish a meal, or whenever you are tempted to snack

• Enjoy non-food treats and ways to relax or distract, especially ones which occupy your hands
  Paint nails, DIY spa face mask, knit / embroider, read a book, dance to your favourite tunes, have a brisk walk
  Do a 4 minute Fat Blast - I like pressups and squats Tabatas.

• NO snacking on NFDs, i.e. not even healthy snacks between meals
  The best habit for all of us
  Snacking keeps insulin raised, hence hunger , so it's a spiral.
  Increase meal size slightly if need be
  If you want a "treat", have it only as your pud, after the meal

• Make your meals low GI:
  protein, masses of different veg, wholegrain carbs - no more than 100g cooked weight total of starchy carbs per meal
  Potato - boiled or baked, not fried or mash. Try sweet potato too.
  Good choices: Quinoa, buckwheat groats, oats, 1-2 slices wholegrain bread, brown / red rice

• Have beans / lentils / peas at lunch or supper - the meal before you usually feel tempted to junk
  These pulses help control blood sugar.

• For either potato or pasta, reduce GI by cooking, cooling in fridge and then reheating.

• Enjoy fruit, but no more than 2 portions total per day and always as part of a meal, never a snack.

• Cut out fruit juice, breakfast cereal (replace by porridge), flavoured yoghurt (replace by natural), dried fruit e.g. raisins
  Keep within NHS alcohol limits - booze encourages nibbling

Sounds like you are making progress with the veg, duck Just keep going
We usually progress in lots of tiny steps, whether healthy habits or weight loss;
sometimes it's only when we look back to the start that we really appreciate the full achievement.

crocus Maybe a couple of cheap second hand items to tide you over, if you can afford that ?

Thanks all.

Wonder - another thing that has worked for me is having 250 ml of kefir for breakfast.

I started drinking it as I am prone to upset stomachs and bloating and the bacteria are apparently good for that. It also apparently works as an appetite suppressant and I've found that to be true.

Normal breakfast is now coffee and kefir on NFDs and I normally only have breakfast on Sundays now. It keeps me going till lunchtime.

Downside is the price as I am unlikely to make my own kefir. I've heard you can get it at many Turkish shops but there's no good ones around us.

I may try and get my DH into it as he's probably a coeliac and has IBS. He'd need to make the dairy free version as he's also dairy intolerant.