5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
  

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
  

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
  

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat.
Just be patient & you'll break through.
However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
  

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight.
Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
================

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[EmGee]

Thankyou for the new thread!
No SV here but all in I feel I'm on the right track and really probably just need to shift one more kilo. I find I am so much more mindful about what I eat, and when I eat it. Have been successful in not snacking at all between b'fast and lunch. If I have had a snack, it's been mid afternoon. Going to try and stop that but it can be hard as often don't get to eat dinner until after 8pm once kids are in bed.

Going on holiday on Tuesday so I probably won't fast (well technically I could but not sure I really want to!!). Not planning on going mad either but may treat myself to one or two ice creams......

Hope it's a good week for everyone!

[calzone]

I fasted today.

Just fluids until 6.45 when I had a low fat homemade vegetable biryani and 3 poppadums which kept me under 500 calories.

I'm not fasting tomorrow.

I'm having bacon on toast for breakfast.
Vegetables for lunch.
Vegetable biryani again for dinner.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Morning and good luck to the Monday fasters

Well done on your FD, Calzone

That's great you are so near goal, EmGee and sounds like you have learned good habits for the longterm
The last kg, in fact the last half-stone, is usually much slower to go - sometimes even 1lb per month - so can need patience.

If that big gap between lunch and dinner is tough, you could deliberately plan an afternoon "mini-meal" like say soup, or a small pita bread, rather than typical "snack" food .
You could optionally reduce the size of lunch a bit, to allow for that.

[EvenFlo2]

Can I join please?
I started doing a variation on the BSD last week but think 5:2 might work better for me.
Has anyone found they don't lose weight if they don't eat enough on NFD?

[MazDazzle]

Morning!

Hi EvenFlo2. When are you planning your first fast?

Just popped onto the thread for a quick check in. FD today after a few days away. I'm HUNGRY!

Water and coffee, here I come.

Any other Monday fasters?

[EvenFlo2]

Probably tomorrow, I have a day with a toddler today so don't know if I can cope with that plus a fast!

Is the fast 500 or 800cal? I keep reading different things..

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, EvenGlo2
You might like to try 5:2 BSD, which is the same daily low carb Mediteranean food as BSD, but you just have 2 FDs at 800 cals instead of 500.

On all forms of 5:2, the aim on NFDs is to eat about / within TDEE, so you don't eat back the FD deficit.
Weight loss on any diet, including 5:2, is dominated by the weekly calorie deficit

eat meals, no snacking
Drink plenty of water

Eating too little on NFDs mostly interferes with weight loss because people can't stick to something that tough, so they binge, or have "snacks" which increases overall hunger & total cals above what they'd have with proper meals.

The key to weight loss is longterm sustainability, so you shouldn't eat below TDEE if this makes you hungry.
However some folk go through periods of burning so much fat for fuel that they don't feel very hungry on NFDs. On other NFDs they may eat above TDEE. It usually evens out over the weeks

If you are hungry on NFDs, then eat meals
When you are no longer hungry, stop eating

[BigChocFrenzy]

FDs
On standard 5:2 - which is normal food, not daily low carb Mediterranean - the FDs are 500 cals for women.

Those with a high TDEE, well over 2000 cals, can lose well on 800 cal FDs on ordinary 5:2. These are typically men, or tall women exercisers.
Short women who have a few stone to lose may also find 800 FDs work for the first couple of months too.
Other women who tend to overeat on NFDs can find 800 cal FDs useful in getting NFDs under control

I suggest with standard 5:2 food, aim for 500 cals but allow 800 if you can't manage this, at least in the first few weeks.
See how you progress.
Some do well with a system of 3 x 800-1000 cal "MiniFDs", so Mon+Wed+Fri

The only real rule for FDs and miniFDs is no alcohol or junk, especially sugar, on those days

[EvenFlo2]

Thanks for the advice - I spent most of last week under 800kcal and it was not too bad. I also went down from about 8 cups of tea (with milk and sugar) to 2 which was a huge surprise for me as I love my tea!

My TDEE is 1453.

The mini fast days might make sense for me. Hmmm so much to think about!

[OuchBollocks]

Hello, I have decided to start this woe. My DH did well on it a while back, but slipper back into bad habits. I have a good bit to lose - I'm 5'8" and 14st 1, not helped by having DS 11 weeks ago and a broken leg at the start of the year, so I was completely sedentary and comfort eating. DS is EBF, but it's time to stop using that as an excuse to eat cake

[SingingGoldfinch]

Hi everyone and welcome to the newcomers! FD here. I'm planning to just drink water and green tea until tea time, when I'm having a stir fry. Feeling a bit weary though so just hoping I can stick to plan. Good luck all others fasting today.

[MrsMooks]

Morning all. I'd like to join please.
I've tried this before but with no success as I keep weighing myself everyday and get frustrated as the weight comes off after a FD and then straight back on a day later!
I will aim to weigh myself no more than weekly.
First FD today, am going to fast Mondays & Weds.
Fingers crossed I can do it this time!

[GrannyGrown]

Morning to all on FD - and all on NFDs - and newcomers!

Well, the scales have finally caught up with the loosening jeans and dropped by a whole kg this week. Waist is down by nearly 2cm too!

FD for me today - despite searching all supermarkets were out of my go-to FD soup so plan 'B' is to have omelette with veggie salad instead.

WiggleYourWoo - I'm a terrible evening snacker too - or rather I was (although I do have the occasional lapse). The only thing which really works for me is putting everything down into MFP so I keep a track of my calories.

MrsMooks - I also weigh myself every day - but I only count my 'true' weight as whatever I am on Monday mornings. That way my weekend NFDs are factored in. I like to see the lower numbers after a FD, but for me it's not a true reflection of where my weight is, if you see what I mean.

Have a good day everyone.

[rocket74]

FD today - but feeling hungry not had this before. Hoping a boiled egg will be enough to keep me going!!

[GrannyGrown]

Rocket we can be hungry together but we'll be fine! Just think of the feeling of being hungry as a by-product of your body having to work harder to turn convert fat into energy.

[EvenFlo2]

I ended up being so busy with my toddler that I haven't eaten much yet. Accidental FD it is! Might as well carry on now!

Can I ask - on NFD, do we stick to the TDEE cal quota? MFP reckon I should be on 1200 but TDEE is 200 cal higher...??

[quckingduck22]

Granny - wow 2kg that is amazing. Well done.

I've had a good week food wise and I'm actually looking forward to my weigh in on Friday for once.

I've just done my online shop and meal planned and no rubbish in sight.

Really stepping up my excersize as off now. I've found a excersize routine planner in my office from when I hired a PT oh gosh must of been 5 years ago in what I should be doing and followed it today. It says if your toning doesn't hurt your doing it wrong, I am feeling the burn today!

BCF what's the rules re protein shakes? I have been taking one on work out days and it was doing nothing for me BUT after looking at the ingredients it's all carbs and low protein so I've binned it and bought a high protein whey lower in carbs and not too bad cal wise. I found in the past when I used a decent brand it really did help recovery.

[GrannyGrown]

Qucking not 2kg, just the 1kg but was still very surprised to have lost so much. Obviously not complaining! Since I came back to 5:2 in April I've lost a total of 2.3kg in weight and 4cm from my waist - so BigChoc's advice to cut out the sugary snacks and pastries to trim the waist was definitely spot on.

Not sure on protein shake rules per se, but I take a 20g scoop (weighed) after long runs or after late afternoon exercise class/run on FD if I know I won't be eating for a couple of hours. Mine has 24g of protein and 5.5g carbs in a 30g scoop, 120 calories.

EvenFlo - NFD stick to TDEE as long as you have it set to one level below your actual activity level. My MFP default is also 1200 cals, but my TDEE is 1450 (ish) so that's the figure I use. I find if I eat much lower than that then the munchies set in late at night ......

Still on a FD here - just. Tummy is rumbling but have usual run with the girls this evening so that will be a distraction. Must remember to take a bottle of water with me.

[kitkat321]

Second attempt at this for me - managed 1 day last time before dd took unwell and I became disorganised and was too tempted by the junk in the fridge as I sat at home watching her.

Back on it today although aiming for 800 calories to start to ease into it pluse just done a circuits class so fingers crossed I can stick to it - hoping to loose about 9lbs if I can!

[OuchBollocks]

I'm so hungry I could eat the baby. Almost time to put DD to bed, then a nice calorie free lemon and ginger tea, then a very early night.

Am I slim yet?

[EvenFlo2]

Thanks granny, will stick with TDEE. I misread your post though and thought you said you were taking a bottle of wine on your run!! I'd deffo run more if that were the case.

First FF done

[EvenFlo2]

FD I mean...

[SingingGoldfinch]

Hang in there Monday fasters!! Sounds like everyone has been doing really well! I did chuckle at your 'am I slim yet' comment Ouch!!

My FD has been ok. I ended up caving and having a 118 cal edamame bean salad at lunch time as I was struggling a bit. Now I've just had prawn stir fry for tea followed by a hartleys fat free orange jelly (my new discovery!) Assuming I manage to hold off till bedtime that'll be a total of about 380 cals - do you think I should be looking to increase that? Is it possible to eat too few cals?

Has anyone else tried Bare Naked Noodles? I had some this eve - they don't taste of anything and texture is a bit weird but they were fine stirred into a stir fry and seems to have filled me up. Just 8kcals in 100g!

Despite my successful FD I'm feeling a bit disheartened today. On previous FDs my tummy has been much flatter and I've felt generally leaner. Today on the other hand, I feel bloated and like I might actually have put weight on. I know I didn't count calories at all over the weekend but can it really have all piled straight back on? Hmmmphh!

[rocket74]

Almost managed it but I am slightly over.
Had a nice dinner of stir fry veg with MandS mango chicken flatties and two tablespoons of coconut rice. DH had the rest of the packet with his!
Managed a good swim of 74 lengths at lunchtime - my new watch counted them for me!!
Having a cinnamon tea for pudding then an early night I think.

[quckingduck22]

Goldfinch I occasionally have the noodles in stir fry and I think that's the only time they are palatable as the texture is a bit off. I personally prefer the rice.

Honestly don't worry about the bloating I get it most FDs actually last Monday on my FD my stomach swelled really badly before bedtime, it felt huge and was really uncomfortable I did Google and I can't remember the reason why. But when you wake up the next day it disappears.