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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2017 22:27

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
HLBug · 18/07/2017 12:19

Water anyone? Some Tuesday inspiration via the pic below Smile

FD for me today and...I'm not hungry!! Doing 16:8 on my NFDs is really, really helping me - feels like a breakthrough!!

5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !
BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2017 13:23

Great lifestyle NSVs there, bug

OP posts:
TheMShip · 18/07/2017 14:10

Lots of fantastic stuff happening on the thread! Lovely to hear all the news, it's really encouraging.

I'm down to 14st6.7 today, officially have lost 2.5st since I first weighed myself 2 months after DD arrived, and 1.5st since I started 5:2, about 2.5 months ago. I should have been taking comparison photos from the beginning but only have 15st vs today to compare, and even that is quite a difference in shape. I think I'll keep it up every 0.5st - quite a ways to go still, but I'm getting on well with the new WOE.

The dress I'm sewing fits amazingly, just a little more adjustment and it'll be ready to wear!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2017 18:16

Congrats on your SV and shape NSV, Mship Really encouraging milestone for you.
I bet you'll rock their socks off with your new dress Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2017 18:18

Warning: you may have to sew more new dresses in ever smaller sizes Grin
So wear this dress as often as you can, before it is too baggy !

OP posts:
OuchBollocks · 18/07/2017 19:17

Suppose this is a victory but it's also a bloody nuisance - the shorts I bought about 4 or 5 weeks ago to tide me over as I slimmed down into my pre-baby summer wardrobe are huge on me already. As in, can't put anything in the pockets because they'll slide off.

FireInTheDisco · 18/07/2017 19:35

That's awesome ouchbollocks, I don't fit in any of my shorts Blush. Well done MShip! I'd love to be able to sew my own clothes.

NFD here and struggling to get the calories up. 1200 so far feels wildly extravagant after yesterday. Is it detrimental if I don't manage TDEE?

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2017 20:43

We always love the "shorts falling down" NSV, ouch Grin

Fire On NFDs, just stop eating if you are no longer hungry. Absolutely no need to eat up to TDEE.
Your body is probably burning some bodyfat for fuel, so make full use of this while it lasts.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2017 20:45

It usually evens out over the weeks:
Some NFDs you'll feel hungrier and want to eat a bit over TDEE, or you are eating out etc
Some NFDs you don't feel hungry.

OP posts:
LightsOnNotIn · 18/07/2017 20:52

Not posted in a while. Usual being ill stuff. I'd hoped that this WOL might miraculously cure me, but, it down doesn't look like it will. I've hit a plateau weight loss wise, so I think I'll try 16:8. I've Googled it. I can't remember if it's outlined in Moseley's book. Couple of questions:

  1. I'm finding 5:2 tough. If I did 6:1, I'd fast on Mondays, then so 16:8 Tues, Wed, Thur. I'd be thinking of eating 12pm - 8pm. Would this be enough to lose some fat?

  2. Could I drink 2 teas with milk in on the 16:8 mornings? Or would that count as eating?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2017 00:11

LightsOn Sorry to hear you've been unwell.
If you are looking for specific health improvements, you may also need to change the type of food you eat / drink, on both FDs and NFDs
In particular, always keeping within NHS alcohol limits and cutting right back on sugary treats, junk carbs, deep fried food etc.
(Obviously stop smoking, if you do so)

A plateau - defined as at least 3 weeks sets - is quite common after you have lost a fair bit of weight.
Under 3 weeks, it may just be blips disguising a slow rate of loss.

BUT weight loss is dominated by calorie deficit:
to lose weight, you need to achieve a weekly calorie deficit, which averages about 1lb per 3,000 calories.

If you haven't lost much in 5:2, then usually this is because NFDs average over TDEE, i.e. you are eating back your FD calorie deficit.
You have to be particularly careful on NFDs if your TDEE is low (e.g. 1500) and / or you miss more than the occasional FD.

Have you tried mfp for one week, to check if you have a weekly calorie deficit ?

  1. Many 5:2ers also do 16:8 or 14:10 on most NFDs, to help keep within TDEE

16:8 only really loses weight if you eat less during those 8 hours
So e.g. skipping either breakfast or supper AND not eating back those calories during the 8 hours.

  1. The 16 hours are supposed to be zero calorie, so drinks without milk or sugar. However, if your total calories within the 16 hours is below 50, then this should not matter, because it shouldn't raise insulin levels.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2017 00:12

typo: A plateau - defined as at least 3 weeks sts

OP posts:
Sarahlouboo · 19/07/2017 05:22

Ah I needed that BCF as I suspect I am plateauing at the moment but I am trying to keep the faith. I am not fasting today as I am off to London for a conference and I am not feeling up to that plus the willpower to fast. Tomorrow instead. Hope everyone has a good day Smile

Sarahlouboo · 19/07/2017 05:25

Well done MShip and Ouch on the SVs and NSVs. I would love if a pair of shorts slid off me Grin although yes, sounds expensive!

Sorry you have not been feeling great Lights 💐

wonderwoo · 19/07/2017 08:42

Wow. Well done mship and ouch!

Sorry to hear you have an illness lights. I have a chronic illness too, and totally empathise with hoping a new WOL will bring a miracle cure. It can feel devastating when that doesn't happen. I have had a good patch recently and I am hoping this is my miracle cure too. Who knows, time will tell. But it's always hard when symptoms worsen. Hope you are not feeling too unwell and you find a way making IF work for you. BCF has given you some great advice.

MerricatsHouse · 19/07/2017 09:43

Well done MShip and Ouch !

Second FD underway here, I really don't feel like I've lost this week though, no idea why as I've been good. Probably because it's so muggy here, or it might be all in my head! If I don't progress at weigh in tomorrow then it's off to MFP for me for a week. Good to know about the under 50 calories thing on 16:8, I always have a cup of tea on NFDs in the evening and I was wondering whether it counted against the hours or not.

Good luck Wednesday fasters!

missludgatecircus · 19/07/2017 10:05

Hello! I've been lurking for months and dabbling with 5:2...but now committed to it. I'm currently 60.1kg and just cannot seem to break the 60kg barrier.

I'm only 5' so should be about 54-56 kg, ideally although am quite muscular.

It's been lovely hearing about all the victories and I hope to have some of my own!

Today is FD4, so far just had a cup of tea and an almond milk latte. Time is rumbling!!

HLBug · 19/07/2017 10:24

BCF you are just fab - we're so lucky to have you!! Thank you for all of your help and advice.

I'm just posting here to say I feel really, really great today!! I think I remember reading somewhere that IF can help reduce stress hormones? Well, it definitely has for me. I genuinely feel so much better psychologically - calmer and happier - since starting this WOL. Long may it (and the weight loss!) continue Smile

And well done everyone for all of the SVs and NSVs this week!

LightsOnNotIn · 19/07/2017 14:25

BCF is indeed fab.

wonderwoo - chronic illness sucks. The illness itself takes up energy and time, and so do the hospital appointments. Here's a positive health thing though - my skin is so much better (no spots at all) since starting 5:2.

BCF - The type of food I eat is fine. I have that in hand. Ditto alcohol - I drink very little. You say that 'a plateau is quite common after you have lost a fair bit of weight' - that's not me. I've gone from 62kg to 59kg. I'm just looking to lose excess belly and thigh fat. In my dreams, I'd quite like to get back to my 20 year old body Smile.

My TDEE is perhaps low, at 1600. I could go to 1500 and try that. Certainly I'll try out 16:8 on some days. I know that I am not going over 500 on FDs, nor 1600 on NFDs, because I MFP the shit out of everything. Sorry, I just used MFP as a verb Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2017 15:06

Welcome miss Smile and good luck with FD4
How did the previous ones go ?

That's a happy mood NSV, bug
Fasting can increase the feeling of alertness and correct some metabolic imbalances, which may help mild - NOT severe - depression, rather like HIIT does.
Both IF and HIIT use the same principle of hormesis, which can improve resilience and fitness.

Fasting may help conditions caused by insulin metabolism problems, e.g. high abdominal fat, PCOS, acne
or caused by inflammation, e.g. asthma, IBS

LightsOn If you are of an age to be affected by peri / meno, then that can massively slow weight loss.
Other factors that hinder loss: thyroid, PCOS, some prescription meds
Also, longterm chronic illness may dial down your resting metabolic rate and hinder fat-burning.

With any of these, short frequent bursts of HIIT (e.g. Mosely 's 4 minute Fat Blasts) may help a little, but sadly you still need to be much more patient than most folk.

Is 1600 your sedentary TDEE ?
If not, did you calculate at one exercise level below what you think, as Mosely advises ?

If you nail every FD & NFD at 500 & 1600 respectively, your weekly deficit would still be only 2200 cals, i.e. about 0.7lb.
If you have swings in water retention, then this could easily disguise such a small loss, for a month or so.

You may optionally try increasing the calorie deficit by aiming for sedentary TDEE on 2-3 NFDs, or even adding a weekly miniFD (below 1000 cals, same rules excluding junk and alcohol)

Also, if you are insulin resistant, then as well as a weekly calorie deficit, you may also need to go quite low GI and cut down considerably even on healthy starches, in order to lose weight.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2017 15:09

LightsOn You also sound within healthy BMI, which would also considerably slow loss.
Some folk lose their final 7 lb or so at the rate of 1lb per month.
In contrast, those with a few stone to go may lose 2-4 lb weekly for quite some time.

OP posts:
LightsOnNotIn · 19/07/2017 16:01

Sounds like I need to readjust my expectations to losing one pound a month. My tdee was calculated at sedentary. Even though I do exercise and walk/bike places.

TheMShip · 19/07/2017 16:20

This is the difference in shape half a stone has made!

5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !
BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2017 18:15

That's a motivating shape NSV, Mship Clearly leaner

OP posts:
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