5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Some absolutely amazing SVs and NSVs here, I'm so impressed (and a teeny bit jealous :) )

Brilliant progress on this thread this week, well done everyone! (also a teeny bit jel!)

Not so in my corner unfortunately, 1lb up here . I'm sure it's probably the effect of my terrible weekend coming home to roost so I have to take the hit for it! At least from now I have no events planned so I can properly focus. Next week will be treadmilling and eating properly, I really want to avoid using MFP if I can as recording everything drives me mad. I think in normal circumstances I do OK calorie wise on NFDs.

Weekends have been problematic for me too, but it does get easier. I'm being much better behaved on weekends now I've been doing this for a while, which is good as I didn't really want to have a FD! I find planning something nice to cook helps and deciding on my small treat in advance. The more planning I can do the better I am at sticking to it!

wonderwoo - 5:2 made me more controlled in terms of what I eat, but I did start logging everything with MFP at the same time. So could've been MFP.

CroakingCrocus - I think a few of us must be saving money on the clothes buying front because we don't want to buy while we're doing sizes!

quckingduck22 - it's one of my pet hates that clothes sizes vary from shop to shop. Some shops want to flatter us (Next? M&S?), and others are more the preserve of the 18 year olds.

Well done everyone on all the svs and nsvs!

Thank you everyone for the advice. I have taken it all on board and am grateful for your experience. (No idea what kefir is... will google it). I suppose i also need to be a bit patient with myself. I cannot expect to make too many changes in the first week and never have any stumbling blocks on the way.

BigChocFrenzy - the info you know astounds me. I think we'd all be floundering around in the dark without you.

Regarding porridge, I struggled to get Jumbo oats, but found Holland and Barrett do them. They are recommended in the Fast book by Mimi R. I think they are less refined than normal porridge. They certainly take more chewing. I measure out 40g of them and nuke them in the microwave with 150ml ss milk. That's me full till lunchtime.

I think that there is lots of leeway regarding calories, gi and porridge. My mil has stuff that is in pouches, is very powdery, and goes in the microwave. I suspect that it's not the healthiest way to eat porridge. Especially once she adds a fair squirt of honey

Don't get me started on the tubs of porridge I've seen that have loads of sugar in them.

[Dismounts soapbox]

FD for me today and I'm looking forward to beans on toast for lunch One slice of small wholemeal bread and half a tin of beans comes in at 158 kcals. I'm so excited!

Did a lot better on my NFD yesterday. Took my activity level down and TDEE now sits at circa 1800 kcal which I think is probably much more realistic. Had 20 % less than that yesterday and felt absolutely fine.

Thinking about doing some 16:8 days on my NFDs - does anyone else do these too? I'm never normally hungry for breakfast and do have a tendency to want to snack in the evenings, so hopefully it'll help me.

Bug I do 16:8 (or 10:14) most days as I eat dinner early and don't often get hungry for breakfast first thing (or at all). I find it a useful restriction to help with the need to snack - it's the 'closing of the kitchen' that helps my mindset.

I wake up ravenous at the moment, but that's night feeds and sleep regressions for you, so missing breakfast wouldn't work for me or anyone trying to have a civil conversation with me at the moment

Kitchen closed. Made burgers from Turkey mince, garlic, coriander and a bit of tobasco sauce for dinner. Bloody gorgeous. Could have eaten them twice but there you go.

I do 16:8 well no actually it's more like 18:6 occasionally 17:7 but I do not count drinks i.e. Coffee with milk or flavored water into that but for me it's a no food WAL and I'm loving it as I don't have to constantly think about what's for 3 meals just the 2.

It's done the world of good to me and I find FD easier because of it.

Right I have set myself a new target fitness related. I'm booking up a 4K for November. I've hardly done any running this year, but I need something to aim towards. Did one last year and vowed never again as I struggled like crazy. I'm use to running to music and did it without and must of tried to keep up with the crowd and I couldn't. So will try to give it another try.

Does anyone here have flaxseed/ linseed? Seen a few articles on it and wondered if anyone takes it?

Well done, Thursday fasters

crocus I find kefir in any decent supermarket in the fridge next to the milk or the yoghurt.
However, I'm in Germany - I got in in England too, but can't remember where.
Just check you get the natural, without any sugary gunk - any flavouring or fruit in kefir or yoghurt almost always has sugar added

LightsOn Any oats that aren't instant, with boiling water, should be fine
Just look for something that needs cooking, even if just nuking in the MW for 2-3 mins

The packet may say "rolled oats / steelcut oats / nartural oat flakes / ...
check contents that NO sugar / honey / maple syrup has been added.

Again, in any decent supermarket - e.g. I found good oats in Waitrose and Tesco, so not just health shops.

bug Many folk combine 5:2 with 16:8 or 10:14 - women often find 14:10 more sustainable.
What I recommend for everyone is to stretch the overnight fast to at least 12 hours, because research suggests that slightly stabilizes insulin for most folk.
Then some days you can choose to extend that to 14 or 16 hours, depending on your schedule and how hungry you feel.

ouch How are you doing ? Those nights sound tough - lack of sleep definitely increases hunger.
Everyone loses at their own pace, which varies a lot, so just do what works for you.

If you are BFing, you can do 1000 cal FDs, which allows 3 or even 4 little meals
Some Bfers gradually come down to 700cal FDs, but only do so if you feel ready and return to 1000 cals for growth spurts or really bad night's etc

Merricat No one really needs to mfp on NFDs - it's just training wheels for anyone who has problems eating within TDEE.
If you don't progress for say 3 weeks - then just mfp for one full week, as a reality check.

duck I recommended flaxmeal / flaxseeds upthread, because they are super healthy, packed with antioxidants, for very few carbs.
Excellent for stabilizing blood sugar.

I regularly add a tbsp flaxmeal to my porridge oats before cooking.
I also add a tbsp chia seeds - another low carb, antioxidant powerhouse - to make a real oat "cocktail" breakfast, or as a big pudding after a light salad meal.

You can also add a scoop of flaxseeds to bread dough when making bread,
or sprinkle 1-2 teasp over salad.

That's a good way of thinking about it BCF - I'll try for at least 12 hours and take it from there. That way if I do get hungry I won't beat myself up about eating as long as I've done at least the 12.

Had a major tummy rumble around 5 p.m. but managed to ignore with coffee and water. Headed out just past 7pm for a 3.5 mile run and then back to prepare a 2-egg omelette with mushroom, onion, a side of peas and broad beans and salad of avocado, tomato and beetroot. All weighed and MFP'd at 485 calories.

BigChoc - don't those seeds all just 'go straight through' or do you grind them in a blender first?

Granny I admit, I've never examined my poop for intact seeds - with a visual disability, I'd almost have to almost stick my nose in before I could see anything !

However, I don't grind anything (life's too short)

chia seeds soak up water almost immediately and become quite soft

Personally, I don't have whole flaxseeds, because I have flaxmeal quite often, whenever I have porridge - obv flaxmeal is finely ground already.
However, I expect your bod would treat them much like other seeds on salad, yoghurt or whatever - most of the nutrients are absorbed, but the fiber is healthy too

That's good news about the flax and chia as I'm already using chia. I must of read it on here then it's popped up a few times since. I will get some today then.

I've been stuck at the same weight for 5 days now. No gain so that's good but a good FD yesterday. Got on the scales this morning and it tucked under by 1/2 pound then went back to the same bloody weight.

LightsOn have you tried porridge oats raw with some natural yoghurt? I love them this way.

Nice to see a 2lb drop on the scales this morning! Now 12st 10lb - down from 12st 12lb last Friday and 13st on Monday.

BCF the nights have been tough this week, especially as he was sleeping reasonably ok before then. DD is at preschool this morning and I'm sacking off the chores and grabbing a nap shortly.

Last week with DD's birthday celebrations and family visiting for 5 days I only managed one FD and there was a fair bit of pigging out, so the scales went up 3lb but must have only been water weight as weighed this morning and am down 1lb from a fortnight ago. Pleased with that. My mum was super impressed with how I'm looking too. I've suggested sl she try 5:2, she's been dieting as long as I can remember but especially since she quit smoking last year she has become very heavy and isn't happy about it. I think she would get on well with it, it would stop her 'I'm on a diet/shit I'm hungry and bored with diet food/sod it let's eat everything' cycle.

Also - TOP TIP! Make your FD main meal with way too much garlic, then your mouth will taste so garlicky and yuck all evening and onto the next day there will be no temptation to eat as it will all taste horrible anyway

Mini FD today. Normally do Thursdays but I had my annual migraine start up Wednesday night and spent the next 24 hours in the dark eating rice and peas. Hunger makes the nausea worse, and rice/peas is the only thing I can keep down. Luckily it passed as usual by evening and I am back to normal. Going to aim for 800-1000 kcal today as I don't want to stress my body out too much after yesterday. Had a good start with an egg, tea, cycle to work and a 1km swim.

wonderwoo - I did some NFD binging too initially. I'm an evening snacker/comfort eater, so I simply started closing the kitchen immediately after dinner. Helped immeasurably.

Some amazing SVs and NSVs upthread! Congratulations on all the dress size dropping!

Well done on your SV, bug Sounds like you've lost the water weight from the WE, plus some bodyfat from the FDs

Good luck, Friday fasters

Well done on the SV bug! I also find it confusing how much the scales can vary throughout the week so I only weigh myself after the second FD now as per bcf's advice.

I am wearing the formerly tight work trousers! They are still a tiny bit nippy but a couple more lbs should do the trick, I wouldn't have been able to get into them a couple of weeks ago!

Managing to stay in TDEE so far so now for the weekend challenge. Not drinking this weekend so that should be easier.

I was also a bit bingey at times to start with wonderwoo and did wonder whether I was setting up some unhealthy eating patterns but that seems to have calmed down (I hope!) In a way the fasting is the 'easy ' bit as you have such clear boundaries. If I can get to a point where I am eating sensibly the rest of the time, that will be the lasting impact for me.

2lbs off this week. That means I'm now 2lbs away from target. My weight graph shows predicted date of next Saturday to get there but the app doesn't know I have 2 nights out.

Going to celebrate with a FD today anyone with me?

I've just realized today is my 1 year 5:2 anniversary of when I originally started. Been some blips along the way and I did stop fasting for a couple of months but been fasting more than I haven't.

Well done qucking! You must feel so excited to be so close to your goal. Its very inspiring for me (10 days into the WOE).

Thank you to everyone for your advice on NFD. I had a much more succesful day yesterday at 1400 calories. TdEE is 1800.

I actually found it hard to eat enough because i was eating salad/souo/porridge and felt full enough. I ended up looking for more food, to bump up the calorie intake. I didnt want to risk eating too little and then falling off the wagon in a few days/weeks and giving up, which is my pattern.

I need to find some more protein foods i think. I am vegetarian and dont think i eat enough.

We are having a pizza takeaway later. I have planned my portions and put into MFP already. I plan to enjoy it as a treat and try not to go overboard. Its nice to not have to feel guilty for eating pizza!