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Fasting / 5:2 diet

5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2017 22:27

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat.
Just be patient & you'll break through.
However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight.
Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)


Useful MN Threads
================

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile
OP posts:
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SingingGoldfinch · 21/07/2017 07:35

Fab work on the 4lb loss Fire!!! Nice news for a Friday!

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wonderwoo · 21/07/2017 07:38

Good luck wiggle. Drink lots... that helps me.

Just caught up on the thread. So many SV and NSV. Well.done everyone.

I feeling great. 2.5 weeks in. Have lost about 7lb. But I also feel good in myself and I am enjoying this new WOL. Just don't feel hungry anymore. Hopefully this isn't just a honeymoon period and this feeling lasts. I think it will. A big thank you to BCF. Your knowledge amazes me and your commitment to keeping up with the thread and supporting us all. You have helped me more than I can say.

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wonderwoo · 21/07/2017 07:40

Well done singing

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TheMShip · 21/07/2017 10:35

Well done singing, fire, qcking, everyone else I have probably missed!

I had a good FD yesterday and I'm feeling alright today. Was struggling a bit with work this week, but the FD seemed to help me find my focus again. My dress is almost finished, and I could cry it feels so good to have a bodice that actually fits my bust. I just have to hem it tonight and I can wear it for date night tomorrow!

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WiggleYourWoo · 21/07/2017 12:55

Thanks a lot for wishing me luck. 0 kcal so far. I need to get back into FD swing, the weight I lost on 5:2 a year ago is creeping up!

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BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2017 18:37

Welcome back, wiggle and good luck.
Lots of great SVs and NSVs here before the weekend Smile

Lovely to hear your happiness about your dress NSV, Mship

Well done on your SV and a good first week, Fire

Congrats on your SV and inches NSV, Sarah You nailed a good FD

Back to pre-wedding SV and a good BMI Goldfinch
After your holiday, you can trim off anything that sneaked in, then plan your maintenance WOL.

Good to hear you are enjoying the WOL, Woo as well as your SV

OP posts:
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EditEcho · 21/07/2017 19:29

Hi everyone, I'm thinking about trialling adopting this way of life. I'm mid 30s, always struggled with weight but really spiralled after 1st child was born 3.5years ago. Peaked at 102kg/16stone at only 5ft 5. Got down to 78kg last year but after a few tough months this year ended up 94kg again. Down to 91kg but struggle with portion sizes and stress eating and think this might really help retrain me.

I'm thinking of starting Monday, have busy Mondays normally which would keep me occupied (although I'm a HCP so don't want to get snappy with my patients!). DH is on board with a few very low calorie meals each week (he's planning to lose a few lbs too anyway).

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SingingGoldfinch · 21/07/2017 19:48

Hello Edit and welcome! It sounds like 5:2 could be perfect for you. It definitely helps retrain you to listen to your body and how much to actually need to eat as opposed to what you think you want to eat. I've been doing 5:2 for 3 months now and I just don't want to eat as much as I used to. It's a brilliant WOL and so flexible. You will get loads of support and advice here too!

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EditEcho · 21/07/2017 20:21

Thanks Goldfinch I definitely need retraining as I almost intentionally sabotage myself for periods of time. My mother constantly tried to make me diet as a child, would refuse me second helpings while encouraging my sister to have them which has definitely left me with a poor relationship with food I think.

I'm worried about eating TDEE on non-fast days- I'm losing slowly at the moment on 1200-1400 calories a day.

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wonderwoo · 21/07/2017 20:30

Hello edit I am new to this WOE (been doing it 2 and a half weeks). But so far so good. I am trying it for similar reasons - I need to relearn hunger signals and how/when to eat and to lose my associations with comfort/stress eating. I tried slimming world last year but it really messed with my head - by encouraging me never to feel hungry and to eat foods that I don't think are very good for me (puddings with sweeteners etc). When I gave up, I gained what I had lost, plus more.

5:2 has been mostly effortless so far. I don't need food in the same way as I did before and I don't feel deprived or obsessed in the same way I did when on diets/plans/etc. Its nice to feel hungry sometimes, and is nothing to be scared of. I have not really been irritable either (at least no more than usual!). In fact I would say my mood has improved overall.

I would recommend reading Mosley's The Fast Diet book if you haven't already. And this thread is amazing - I have learned so much and it is so supportive.

Good luck.

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HLBug · 21/07/2017 22:32

Can I ask - what scale do you all use? Just a basic weight one? Or one that gives other measurements too? Like BMI / body fat etc etc etc...

I notice some people talking about scales showing 1/4 and 1/2 pounds - mine doesn't do that but I think maybe I'd like one that does? So if the big numbers don't move as much as I'd like, I can maybe see if I'm close to loosing that next pound or not?

I did actually have a SV today - down 2 pounds from last Friday - but I've started thinking about things like body fat and I think I'd like to see that percentage too? But are these fancy scales accurate at measuring that type of thing? How will it know I have big boobs for instance?!?!

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BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2017 23:01

Welcome, edit Smile
If you are interested in the science, see links to peer-reviewed research in the "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health" at the end of the OP.

If you've been losing on daily 1200-1400 cals, you should be able to eat significantly more on NFDs:

On 5:2, the 2 FDs provide the weekly calorie deficit, whereas the 5 NFDs are "maintenance" days, hence eating around TDEE.
Mosely recommends calculating TDEE for one activity level lower than you think, since most people overestimate their regular exercise
If you don't exercise much, just calculate sedentary TDEE.

Most people can lose on 5:2 without having to use mfp on NFDs, because the idea is that these are your "normal" eating days.
However, you can optionally use mfp as training wheels, until you feel confident about normal eating.

btw, if you exercise on FDs, you should still keep to the 500 cals.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2017 23:19

bug
Weight
Any decent new digital scales should be fine, e.g. Tanita.
However, weight often varies naturally from day to day by 1lb or so: undigested food, hormonal swings, water retention etc
So, fractional losses or gains are probably just random noise in the measurements - not to be taken seriously.

To monitor progress, look at the trend over 2-3 weeks, which is long enough to smooth any blips

Bodyfat
Fat % measurements are only reliable if you pay £250 to a specialist lab with a Bodpod or similar.
No home scales, or even commercial gym machines are very reliable - they vary according to several factors:
when you last ate / drank / pooped / exercised / how moist your skin is ....

Measurements with calipers or bodyfat calculators are often more accurate, but their error is +/- 3% even when done correctly by trained gym staff

One of our 5:2 maintainers, maybe talkinpeace found a 5% error between gym measurements and BodPod (she was in a human study)
Brad Pilon, a well-known bodybuilder who uses fasting, reported a 9% error - 21% vs 12%

Recommended:
Monitor your waist measurement instead, because it is a good indicator of the amount of visceral fat (around the organs) which is the type most relevant for health.
Subcutaneous fat (undervthe skin) is of far less concern.

First aim: get waist below half your height, e.g. within 32" for someone 5'4"

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2017 23:20

Well done on your SV, bug
It's been a successful week for many 5:2ers Smile

OP posts:
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HLBug · 22/07/2017 05:36

Thanks BCF, that's really useful - I think I'll just stick with my basic digital scales in that case!!

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pangolinfan · 22/07/2017 07:05

Catching up with the thread after a busy week. Some great SVs and NSVs here - Goldfinch that's amazing, and at 5 foot 9 you must look (and more importantly, feel) fabulous at that weight. Congrats theMship on the dress you've made. I made a dress in March (in fact cutting it out was what made me start this WOE - I did it in a class and the teacher said I needed to slightly "scale up" size 18 - a size I had never thought of myself as). I've now got to take the dress in as it's falling off. Having said that, I have not had a good week - too much travel for work (I'm finishing my job on Monday and worried about getting everything done), late play rehearsals and - what passes for wild living for me these days - a boozy book club until 1.30 am on Thursday which made me crave carbs all day yesterday. I need to get back on it today, and am planning my first weekend FD. Have a good weekend everyone.

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EditEcho · 22/07/2017 07:08

Thanks BCF, I've read a lot of the science already. I have a small waist by comparison to the rest of me, with small waist:hip ratio. I'm very hourglass shaped which is metabolically good, but almost impossible to get clothes for. I think that's part of my problem- I need to accept that my shape won't change.

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EditEcho · 22/07/2017 07:10

Do most of you have set fast days or does it vary week to week?

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LightsOnNotIn · 22/07/2017 09:42

EditEcho I try to stick to a Monday FD, just to get it out of the way at the start of the week.

Yesterday was a 16:8 day where my eating period was 12 till 8pm. I went out for a meal last night at 6.30pm. i felt daunted by the food and my partner said that I didn't eat much, and yet I was stuffed.

I'm going on holiday on Tuesday for 2 weeks to Greece. I'm going half board, so breakfast and evening meal. Now that I'm doing 16:8 I wish that hotels would do half board as lunch and dinner!

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quckingduck22 · 22/07/2017 09:50

Well done goldfinch that's incredible.

Welcome Edit. You sound very much like me age wise and shape. I just wanted to say your shape absolutely can change. I am very much a hour glass I didn't take my stats for my waist but I'm going to share my before and after with you. My thighs have always been huge, they are still the largest part of me but the ratio between them has for me massively reduced.

End of May:
Bust: 35
Tummy: 35.5
Thighs: 41

This week
Bust: 32
Tummy: 29
Thighs: 32.5

At the beginning of this I looked in the mirror with a "I hate my thighs" I now look in the mirror with a "look at my thighs" and a happy grin!

I've been rushed off my feet this week so no excersize for me but will get back to it next week.

I need to get my backside back into gear this week. I've appopted treat day Friday 1 meal of what I fancy followed by a pudding. It's giving me set boundaries and I like that so it doesn't become treat night every night.

My weight is still massively fluctuating and no loss this week but 1/2 inch off my thighs is a nice suprise.

FD today, good luck to everyone else on your fasts!

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quckingduck22 · 22/07/2017 09:56

Edit you also asked about FDs being set days. For me I tend to stick with Thursday and Saturday as I'm home those two days and am busy cleaning so not much time to think about food. I do change them about slightly if I miss lunch one day in the week I may think I may as well do a impromptu FD.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2017 10:22

That's an encouraging Dress Falling Off NSV, Pango
Is your weekend FD today ?
I'm fasting today, with a pump class this afternoon, so I'll probably eat afterwards.

Well done on a very impressive inches NSV, Duck
You are right that shape can change a lot if you burn bodyfat, whether from waist or from hips, bum, thighs

That breakfast and supper half-board is also OK for a different kind of fasting, lights:
You would have roughly 2 x 11 or 12 hr fasts daily. A change on holiday makes a good break.
Of course being on holiday, you could choose to have lunch some days too, if you spot a good place, or buy picnic food.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2017 10:42

🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺
.
🎺🎺 ..... We have a new NEW 5:2 Thread # 69 ..... 🎺🎺
.
🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺

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quckingduck22 · 22/07/2017 11:00

You are spot on BCF. It has worked out very well for me as I've always been bottom heavy and no other diet has touched my bottom half the way this has. I had a PT years ago to help me shrink my thighs and it didn't really help.

Right for the new thread I'm name changing as I made a mistake it should be quackingDuck not what I am ATM. I blame my Stupid long nails.

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