The 5:2 thread number 38 -"Oh that this too, too solid flesh would melt" : Well, Hamlet, it can in a healthy, sustainable way. Join our friendly 5:2/IF support group"

[BigChocFrenzy]

The 5:2 thread number 36
The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.
The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.
By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.
You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.
WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.
MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.
TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.
NFD = Non fast day
NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory
Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!
Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and were a friendly bunch.
Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:
Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.
Tips and Links: Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!
Inspirational: eatriskiers thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.
Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!
Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.
Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.
Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.
This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.
This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.
This link nicely demonstrates that there are many body right body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.
A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")
Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this article appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI. (Though anecdotal evidence from these long-running threads may suggest otherwise)
A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.
A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!
Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

Fat, including saturated, is necessary for most people, but especially for kids.
Some of the school lunch box police have gone mad, confiscating sandwiches with full fat cheese or bacon, or any full-fat yoghurt.

STUPID, STUPID policy based on dogma, not science

A mum on recent thread was complaining the school confiscated a BLT sandwich and I think some yoghurt & grapes from her little DD, publically shaming her and not allowing her a school lunch.

Can the many teachers here answer:
Are schools trying to teach kids to have EDs ?

Joby Sorry to hear about your break-up. 12 years is such a chunk out of your adult life. You are doing so well to remember healthy, mindful eating.
You are obviously a strong person.

This is a lovely supportive thread, so do post when you feel down.

It sounds like loads of people are ill. pass you sound like you are having a really bad time of it.

betsy totally agree with your rant. Proper food in the right proportions is the way to go.

Came in at 1000 cals today. Started well but went a bit downhill in the evening, still not bad for getting back into it. Will give it ago again on Thurs.

My DD's school promotes healthy eating, "Mum, you would think fruit juice is good for you, but it actually isn't! It's full of sugar!", but her canteen lunch once consisted of...

Turkey burger in a white bun,
Choc sponge and custard,
Milkshake,

despite ingredients and menus being heavily 'policed'!

I work in a Senior School and there are lots of really great, veg. based dishes with lean meat, but NEVER fish or brown bread/pasta/rice! Oh, and as well as plain water, only 'healthy' drinks like fruit juice, or carbonated fruit juice/water are allowed. And there's a COSTA style coffee machine selling a range of caffeine drinks!

WhenSheWasBad 1000 cals is still an achievement, especially since you're just getting on your feet again after all those bugs! Onwards and upwards!

Don't get me started on the school food... Some of the lunches are ok, though there's at least one day a week where it's just carby stodge with baked beans followed by more carby stodge for pudding AND they insist on serving low f*cking fat thickening agent and sugar filled yogurt to GROWING KIDS.

The 'healthy eating' lesson plans are ok but again, it's all promotion of low fat rather than the concept of what healthy fats are. Not much has changed in the dogma since the 80s. But then I'm guessing a lot of the teachers don't know any better either.

Another bit of the leaflet said about ''aiming for 400 cals for breakfast, 600 for lunch and 600 for dinner" without any info on what age/height etc that was aimed at. Plus the usual "men should have 2500 and women 2000" - arbitrary numbers. Does anyone on here conform to those numbers? It seems to me that most women of average height and normal BMI the TDEE is consistently quite a bit lower than that which means that most people are being advised to eat more than they should...

Look where that's got us.

Cheers mazzle still exclusively bf so 1000 cals isn't bad at all.

Yes, Betsy, it is so silly to be forever telling us that 2000 calories is "average". I am pretty sure that's why I am struggling to keep my calories at 1700 on a NFD.

I get so cross when the schools advocate low fat, fake sweetener, margarine (which was invented in the 1950's, I think, to fatten up turkeys!). I had to teach year 8 cooking a couple of years ago and the head of learning insisted on toeing the Standard Shit Diet Advice. God it was hard for me to tell the kids to use only polysaturated fat when I was following the Paleo diet and helping myself to butter, coconut oil,animal fats...I do still mainly stick to eating in a Paleo way, but I have allowed myself some treats and gluten free grain now. I found it unsustainable to be strict on it.

Well done MrsF You are an inspiration to me, as I started at 85 kgs a couple of years ago, then lost about 8 - 10 kgs doing Paleo, but had regained, and started 5:2 at 78kgs. I have a lot more than you to lose, although I can't wait to be 69kgs, my goal is more like 60-65. I really hope that if I stick to this WOE in a year I can come on here and say I have reached my goal.

It has been a challenging few days. I have definitely had the carb munchies and I blame it on my stupid cycle (did feel pregnant, but tests say otherwise.Expect AF in the next couple of days). Yesterday was a real doozey, and a fast day. It took great will and determination to get through it. I slept in, and then my day rapidly descended into chaos. I didn't have time for any caffeine. Felt like I was crawling through mud. Missed DS's bus, so had to take him to school, but we were too early and had to wait around to allow him through the doors. Two sets of road works, and I am late for my first class. The new shoes I was wearing (gorgeous super soft green leather Marni shoes bought off Ebay for $35) were so slippery I was concerned I might slip over and injure myself! Luckily I had a pair of sandles in my office at work!My year 11 class were very sweet, got stuck into their work and I was able to go and get myself a cup of tea and change my shoes!

I was craving chocolate big time by recess! But I drank more tea. I went into town to the post office and was just about to break...I had that internal battle going on: "Just have the chocolate, you've had a bad day, fast tomorrow...but if I just fast today, then it will be over with and I can have the chocolate tomorrow..." whilst this convo was going on I spotted that my favourite shop was having a 50% off sale, so I went in there and tried on some clothes. It worked a treat - as soon as I saw myself in the mirror I thought,"I am not going to sabotage my weight loss, it isn't worth it". And walked out of there about $270 lighter!!! Got a couple of lovely new things though. so it seems my avoidance of chocolate was very expensive, but I didn't break! I was also ravenous when I got home from work and again had the internal battle. In the end I decided it wasn't worth stuffing up my FD when it was almost over and I hung in a little longer for a delicious low cal dinner of fish and vege.

Joby, sorry about the break up. You sound so positive though

Pass, poor you, shingles is awful. My sister gets them, and often takes the anti-virals, I am surprised they weren't prescribed for you.

Congratulations to the lady in France who has had a SV (I'm sorry, can't remember your name, and don't want to lose all I've typed by going back )

Another fast day tomorrow, then I have a weekend away, by myself....Can't wait - staying in a lovely hotel on the water, shopping in the city on Saturday, catching up with old Uni friends on Saturday night, all by myself...Yay!

To all BFers: You are special cases on 5:2
The advice is to start on 1000 cal FDs and see how you feel.
You can either gradually lower to 700 cals or raise to 1200 cals, depending on degree of hunger, tiredness, milk supply.

So much news from everyone!

Well done Mrs f, you are one who has inspired me, with many others sharing your ups and downs and tips do freely.
Some of the simple tips that really encouraged me:
Your body will plateau, don't worry about it and keep going
Have a plan for your fast day, I just do more or less the same thing and then don't worry about thinking of food!
Drink something salty in the arvo if you feel desperate, it works
Cheers all, have a good one whether feast or fast!

betsy I hate that average shit too. If the average woman needs 2000 calories then about 50% will need less and 50% more. At sedentary my tdee is 1610 but with the amount of exercise I normally do its more like 2100. So I am both above and below average but 2000 ain't gonna cut it for me.

Well done mrsf. And anyone else who posted good things up.

I'm still feeling terrible, not so much with the head and throat but the antibiotics are making me feel nauseous. Can't really win here! The good thing is that I can't eat much which means at least I'm not overeating as I'm certainly not exercising either. Definitely no issue with sticking around sedentary tdee. And my usual treat food makes me feel sick too, even the nice chocolate.

Not sure what the food retailers could do that would be more helpful than those averages though - at least they give an order of magnitude scale for the totally clueless.

I need some help on my NFD food choices. Breakfast in particular. Especially on the days directly after FD - I tend to make toast while I'm getting the DC their breakfast. And I'm not capable of eating just two one slice of toast, and it sends me into a bit of a carb craving spiral for the day.

Any ideas? Ideally I guess something a bit protein heavy I suppose to combat the carb spiral. Oh, and no eggs. Due to DD2's allergies we don't keep them in the house.

I suppose I could get back into the habit of not having breakfast at all, I only started eating it when I got pregnant with DD1, but that often leads to mid-morning carbs instead.

yes, I realise I'm a bit difficult

Morning all

Woo hoo and to MrsF!

Second fast day of the week for me. I was at work from 7.45am til 9.15pm yesterday and although I managed to do over 11,000 steps in that time I also undid the weight loss achieved from Monday's fast by munching all day!

eatriskier and other poorly people please get well soon.

If I ate and drank the 2500 daily calorie allowance that the government say should be my average I'm guessing I'd have to be in the gym every spare waking moment every single day if I didn't want to put on weight .

Have a good day everyone.

Morning all. Feel so much better after a good FD yesterday and have already mfp'd today's food choices to make sure that I'll come in on our under TDEE
4lbs seem to have magically disappeared in the last two days. Not sure I entirely believe that but it's nice to see the scales slightly more in the range I want to be. I do think a fast day resets your body very quickly so looking forward to another one tomorrow.

VV - try my combo of yogurt (either greek or onken set are good, but whatever natural yog you prefer) with some nuts and seeds (not too many, weigh a spoonful the first time to work out how many suits your calorie requirement) and fruit - at this time of year I like frozen blueberries, raspberries or cherries (sainsbos do good ones). It's easier and (I think) healthier than most of the non-egg cooked breakfast protein-y options.

That's it. I give up.

DH has forcibly removed the babies from me and is taking them away to playgroup for a couple of hours so I can go back to bed as I was up ALL night hacking up my lungs non-stop, with a banging headache and throbby sinuses.

I've taken 2 codeine now as I'm not messing about any more. I MUST get some sleep or I'll never get better. DS now has it too, as has DH (mildly).

We are officially The House of Plague.

Food wise, I dunno really, it's another NFD but I don't have the energy to think about it, (I didn't do my Thai curry last night and just ended up eating sweet potato and cheese!). I think I just feel like soft toast and tea.

Hope all the FD-ers have a good-un, and happy scoffing NFD-ers.

get some good zzz zed.

vv either no breakfast or a chopped fruit/berries + plain yogurt + nuts and seeds or sprinkle of muesli seems to work well - nutritious and doesn't set off the carb monster.

I will go for something egg based if it's brunch rather than first thing.

Gum SED - exactly - my 'lightly active' tdee is just short of 1800, I'd have to be doing bigchoc style gym routines to even squeak up to 2000. I clearly overeat at least half the time as I have to have the 2 fast day calorie deficit and regular activity to not put on weight.

I'm starting to wonder who came up with those figures and where their interests lay as it seems to promote over eating doesn't it...

Zed You are ILL - go to bed and stop thinking about fast days or counting calories until you are better! I promise you, it's counter-productive to fast while unwell.

Get well soon

Thanks - shall try fruit/yoghurt/muesli combo and see how I get on!

I wonder were the calorie allowances calculated when people were more active by necessity/habit, and simply aren't relevant anymore.

I would like to announce my Intention To Fast (ITF - new acronym?)

So far 2 milky coffees. If I can keep my massive girly off my boob I might make it.

I managed a bang on 500 cals yesterday.

Made the most amazing chicken noodle soup for dinner.

Very pleased with myself.
Good Luck today FDers

Since we're talking about mythical numbers (I can eat 2000 cals a day, but I'd better not if I want to fit my clothes!) this might be interesting:

here