4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

Hi I'm not a violinist but I work in the arts and culture sector and there is a violin shop in Blackpool - I live near to there and work in Blackpool. I have been told it is a hidden gem. www.violinshop.co.uk

claraschu, thank you for your kind words and sharing all your wisdom and knowledge. I'm sure it's not only me who is taking notes from your posts. Yes, DS loves violin. He begged for violin lessons for a year. I was reluctant at first but looking at him being so affectionate and passionate towards violin now I am so glad we gave in and let him have lessons. We've never had a problem of making him practise. He doesn't have enough time though, unfortunately. But it may be making him want to be with violin even more!

string and se22, I think it really is a good idea to have a spare instrument for school use. I am seriously considering it once DS moves to secondary school. But I am not sure how DS would feel about playing a lesser model at school. He may be too used to the good response and sound of his main model...? Also his teacher is not keen on this idea...

Better, I agree with claraschuu. I would take it to a luthier/violin shop if I were you. Often new setting revives dull instruments wonderfully (that's what I learnt from this journey!).

Smiler, thanks for the suggestion.

"We know the maker, year, country for the £3.5k, £5.5k, and £6k, but no information available for the 4k... The luthier thinks it was probably made 1910, and by the shape and varnish he believes it is east German, possibly Dresden. But it doesn't have any label inside so it's all just a (but knowledgeable) guess and I do worry if it'll cause a headache when we want to sell it for upgrading."

That sounds like my violin - which I've now had for over 30 years. No maker's label, probably German from various features of the design (elaborate scroll), probably early 20th century! The great thing about no maker's label is that it does knock quite a bit off the price, so you get a better sounding instrument for the money.

Re. bows, I spent years and years with a crap bow (was a student, then short of cash when I first started work). I finally got a decent-paying job and splashed my first pay cheque. About a quarter of the price of the violin (so not far off your rule of thumb) and it really does make an enormous difference.

Hi claraschu, Thank you very much! It's a new violin. I changed the tailpiece recently with fine tuner myself as DS can't tune with the pegs properly now. I have bough a set of dominant strings and want to test if it is the string problem. It seems that I need to visit a luthier to set it up. DS is not up to that standard to use an expensive one yet. The 3/4 is the one borrowed from friend three years ago. It is also a new one which I believe less than 10 years old.

Hairy, since I wrote the post I've learnt so much and now I know label is not so important. It's so replaceable and unreliable. Any decent luthier/dealer will judge the violin for the vanish, design, shape etc, not the label. But you are right. You can get a better sounded violin without a brand name for a good price.

I've also learnt a bit of the mechanism of violin and how important the thickness of the panels are, especially the front panel. We had to decide to return a violin DS really liked for this reason. I was concerned how thin the panel was. It was dangerously thin, especially around the bridge. It may be the reason for the wonderful sound but couldn't take a risk. It's from a decent luthier so they offered to examine the strength. We may take it back depending on what they say. Or we may decide to stay away from it.

A luthier let DS take a bow home. It really is a beautiful bow. It's old German without a name and costs £900. DS tried a £1500 bow too, which was new with a name. The German bow was much better, easy to balance, nicely bouncy, good weight. DS said it's so easy to play. Oh dear, I don't think he can go back to his crappy bow now (prob £50 or so)...

I inherited a violin. I took it to a Luthier for a bit of a sort out and assessment. It turned out the violin was worth 2.5 k and the bow 3k !

Didi, that's a story we all want to hear more often (and happens to us)!!!!

Kutik, your experiences of violin hunting are going to be invaluable to anyone doing the same. In fact,I'm taking notes so that when we start hunting-prob after Easter I will know what to be looking for. I'm a bit scared/overwhelmed to be honest as we were just planning on going to one place- Woodbridge Violins. I'm not sure mini-disorganised could cope with going to umpteen different places. We've been told by his violin teacher that we should be looking a violin that will take him right through to Music college. Music is all he wants to do so we are willing to spend between £3-5K plus bow 😱

Hi Kutik, it's been really interesting to read about your son's quest for a violin! We have just been through this process with our DS, 12, also a music scholar and grade 0. ;-) Violin is his second instrument so he is definitely not as advanced as your DS. We decided not to look for the forever-violin yet, because he would be taking it to school on his bike all the time. Like you, we first thought about buying two instruments, a really good one and a cheap one to keep at school, but the school doesn't allow kids to leave their instruments there apparently so that wasn't an option.
So then we decided for something in-between for the next few years. When I started thinking about this, I realised that when I was a teenager, most of my friends who were very good violin players (several went on to conservatoires) actually had their first really good violin when they were about 14/15 and played on cheaper instruments before that.
I took my son to one violin shop only (Bridgewood&Neitzert), mainly because that's where we bought his 3/4 size and had been very happy with their service. It took us around a month, trying and taking home several violins between £300-£1k and we chose a beautiful Chinese one in the end which was £900. I play a £6k modern violin myself (well, valued at £6k, not sure I would ever be able to sell it for that much) and actually prefer to play on my son's violin now because its 'playability' is so much better! To be fair, I probably need a new bridge on my violin but I can't remember that it ever played so easily (it does sound better though, phew).
I know that this Chinese violin is not going to hold its value like an antique instrument would, but it does give me peace of mind that DS is not cycling around with a very expensive instrument and yet is very happy with the instrument he now has and can actually use it all the time.
I also have a little bit of experience with Stringers in London, but only with cheaper instrument outfits, which seem to vary in quality but I have one pupil with a beautiful 4/4 student violin from them. Another pupil brought her violin there once with a broken string and they replaced it at no cost, they also replaced her bow at some point. However I once brought my own violin there for a new soundpost and wasn't happy with the outcome.
I'm glad our hunt is over for the time being, good luck with yours, I'm sure your son will find a beautiful instrument in the end!

I really like this thread, it’s like a really gently paced, somewhat abstract reality show. Anyway, it’s gripped me and the only satisfactory conclusion is an intimate recital with the lucky final instrument in a secret location to which we’re all invited .

In a contribution to discussion, we tried a two cello situation once and dd found it most disagreeable. Couldn’t get on with swapping between cellos at all for serious practise. Happy to mess about on a blooming 1/8th till the cows come home though!

disorganised, our budget is similar. I hope this thread would be of any help for you. By the time you have started your violin hunt, (hopefully) we will be our mission part 2 - our bow hunt!

Madame, ah, the fellow grade zero musician! I think you made a very wise move. Apparently nothing can beat (well-made) Chinese violins for the budget of £1k - 2k. Playability, reliability, great tones are just superior for the price tag. DS's current favourite is £6k, English made, and fairly modern.... Hmm...

Xennialish, I shall consider the private showcase at the end of the journey, shall I?! Invitation only Youtube channel perhaps! DS's teacher is against having two violins at this stage...

We took the £6k English-made violin to jd yesterday.

DS played in a small lesson room as well as in a mid-sized performance room. It sounded lovely in the small room. But I was not so excited in the performance room... It sounded lovely but it had this 'inward' sound rather than outward. I can't explain but it may not have good projection?

We don't have the Cardiff violin now as we sent it back (though we may take it back soon again!). So I can't compare them side by side. But it had brighter and clearer sound if my memory is correct.

DS seems to love this violin (though he loved the Cardiff one too). But he only knows the sound under his ear. Luckily we can keep it for quite a while so we have time to understand her more (isn't violin female?? ).

A luthier told me we would starve in the end as we were so indecisive and taking so much time to find 'the one'. He said this to me when I brought back his violins as we decided we didn't like them. On the other hand, another luthier 'advised' me to take time and try and experiment until we were satisfied. We have his violin at the moment.

Dd1s full size violin (her first) is a new chinese one, around the 3k mark price wise. She trialed several (all picked out from luthiers by her teacher) and this one was the one that felt right. It's nearest rival was a scandinavian instrument which she loved for fiddling but was less keen on for classical.

She's had it 8 months or so now and she's very pleased.

Mending, I really hope we find something we feel right soon too... But..., DS broke devastating news today. All the violins including the English-made one are now going back to the luthiers.... Just when I though we were so close to end this journey.

I told DS ideally we would need to find one by Easter so that the bow hunting could be started during the holiday (very hard to make many visits during school term). DS reminded me we should not hurry especially since we came this far! Now I am looking at the option of loaning one from jd until we find one to purchase...

We should've bought the first one we liked maybe!!

Is it possible (in the gentlest way) that you might be overthinking it at this age. Perhaps your 10-year-old senses that he isn't quite ready to have responsibility for the choice. A healthy sounding, relatively inexpensive, Chinese instrument or an old German factory instrument for a couple of thousand might take a bit of pressure off, and give him something to work with for a few years at least, until he has gained maturity.

I think in order to get a lovely handmade brand new instrument for £6,000 you would have to be incredibly lucky and stumble on a fantastic unknown youngish maker, who just happened to be really good. Established modern makers tend to charge quite a bit more than that, don't they? I could EASILY be wrong about this, but I would guess that you are more likely to find a serendipitously lovely older instrument of unknown provenance (often German factory made). My own feeling is that brand new instruments don't often have the complex and subtle sweet, rich, deep sound which is intriguing right under the ear to a young player. Again, this is just my personal feeling, and obviously may have NO relevance to your son.
What pieces is your son playing at the moment?

claras, I think you hit the nail on the head. I was always advised to take time and spend serious money for 4/4 so I was diligently following the advice but perhaps a bit too literally.

DS and I just discussed about it this morning, and both agreed to re-start our research with more open minded attitude.

DS is playing quite a few pieces but the most recent solo piece is Janacek's Works for Violin and Piano.

Booked two visits this week. I was asked the budget so told them roughly £1k to £3k. I described what kind of violin we were after also.

At the end of our journey I am going to list up all the places we visited and my very subjective recommendation of luthiers/shops. I am hoping this thread could be of any help for those who are in the same position in future.

Sorry to hear you're back to square one! I think it's a good idea to have a look at some cheaper violins, with the experience you both now have. If your son doesn't like any of them you'll know you should probably spend more.

Did his teacher advise on what sort of price you should be looking at?

I didn't expect to go back to square one at this stage to be honest... But I feel all we've done so far is no waste and DS and I are actually enjoying the learning process (though very exhausting!!). And yes, I think this new move would give us more realistic options.

The teacher didn't tell us any specific figures but she seemed to be happy with a £4k and a £6k we showed her. She didn't said they were too expensive nor too cheap. She did say more than £8k would be too much at this stage. She doesn't mind factory-made/handmade. Her advice was 'take time, no rush'.

Given you're back to square 1 again, would it be worth reconsidering borrowing from JD for a year or two? I think I'd find that tempting if it was one of my kids. Give them that bit longer to grow into a full size while still keeping an eye out for opportunities, older students upgrading and selling on etc.

cat, you read my mind! I've just emailed JD about it!

Have you thought of having one made Kutik- mini Kutik could borrow one from the JD until it’s ready?

There is a difference between a named makers and tonal quality. A named maker will raise the instruments price: this doesn't mean that you get a better sounding instrument. You are paying for the pedigree and providence: there are some very nice factory violins from China for £300 which I have seen professional soloists use in concert.

Try Martin Swan violins - they are new instruments, fantastic tone, about £2000 mark, based outside of Edinburgh. (I have been playing for 30 years and am an unqualified violin teacher to 30 students).

Paul, you mean order-made? No I don't think we will go there. It'll be too expensive and too risky since we don't know much about makers and whose violin would suit to DS's needs. DS is still at the very beginning of his mastery so ordering one for him sounds such waste (sorry DS!). Maybe one day!

Maursh, yes I am aware of the name value thing. Although I would like to say we are 100% after the sound and quality only, if we end up paying at around £5k, I would like to have some securities of saleability for future upgrade. However what I feel right now is, if we are looking for both the quality of the sound and the reasonable name value, we won't find one that satisfies us (DS) within our budget. At this stage, DS needs something playable and sound, so I decided to go for something more reasonable which we choose purely for the quality of the sound and we don't get too disappointed when we couldn't get much money back in future.

I hear lots of good things about Chinese violins but they are mostly good handmade ones. I would be very surprised £300 violin can cope with professional use. Surely the wood won't be seasoned enough, and good quality ebony cannot be used? Or I may be discovering something new again? I like new thoughts and ideas that open up my mind and choices!

I will check out Martin Swan. Thank you!

Maursh, checked the website and it does look interesting!