4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

No Kutik you're not crazy. I'm thinking of going to bloody Munich to see Corillon Violins!

Btw, since you're in London, have you considered taking the train? It's fast and direct and you could easily do a day trip (and take in the Castle too).

Good luck and please let us know how you get on!

Thank you chingo. Just booked the train tickets! Let me know when you've booked air tickets to Munich!

We might see you in Cardiff Violins, Kutik - meeting DS's teacher there to try out some bows.
Definitely visit the castle, if you get time, and Barker's coffee house which is underneath the string shop at the beginning of the arcade - quirky but fab.
Fingers crossed you find an amazing instrument!

Oh dear... DS's teacher said Cardiff would be too far for a violin! She warned me that it wouldn't be easy if we decide to return or need any adjustment. The shop said we could return by courier. But I must say I didn't like the idea of 'posting' valued violins... I know it's quite common practice for some companies though.

I have built such a great relationship with a luthier who we bought DS's 1/2 and 3/4 from. I know we don't need to go back to the shop where the violin came from every time you need adjustments/check-up/repairs, but I do like the idea of looking after an instrument with a luthier who sold it to us.

I'm confused more than ever. But time is ticking.

Kutik, what does the teacher mean "too far for a violin"? Of course you must go with someone you trust - I totally get that. But does this luthier have a shop, or just a workshop?

One thing to consider is that you want to be able to try a range of instruments, which you will get at a shop like Cariff - not necessarily via a single luthier.

Please don't worry about the couriers - I was worried too, but they pack it in these special boxes and they are insured and Cardiff ships all over the world, so really there's no risk to you. It's easy to return the violin via courier.

If you're concerned about adjustments, repairs etc, then you would want to find a good luthier/workshop that is local to you. I go to Bridgewood and Nietzert for stuff like that - in fact they fitted a new chin rest for my daughter on the Cardiff Violins. It might be nice if you buy something via your local luthier, such as a case, strings etc so they get something out of it. But a violin is a massive investment and of course very important to your DC and location shouldn't really matter.

∆ I agree. You need to be satisfied that you have seen a wide range of instruments within your budget, which means travelling potentially. The fact you have a luthier you trust to be able to set up and maintain the violin you choose is a huge plus point, no matter where you end up buying, but I wouldn't let it restrict you to only instruments they have.
You have nothing to lose by coming to Cardiff - at worst, you'll decide you like an instrument you've already tried ( and enjoy a nice day out!), at best, you may find the violin of your/mini's dreams.
Lots of instrumental shops use courier services, so don't worry about that.

Sorry, but your teacher is talking out of their backside. You can buy it wherever you like! I bought my double bass in Edinburgh but lived in NW England. We went into the shop there on spec at the end of our holiday as DH fancied his own viola. I was bored so went to look at the basses and DH eventually joined me. They had 3 basses and i kept coming back to the cheapest one as the tone was fab but it had been set up completely incorrectly with a double tail wire and the bridge was too close to the fingerboard. I bought it; they wrapped it in plastic bags (I had a case already) and I re-packed it into the car in the middle of a busy Edinburgh street.

A good friend is a luthier so he set it up properly for me, removing one tail wire, re-positioning the bridge and sanding it down a little. That was 25 years ago. It has been a fantastic instrument and I frequently receive comments about what a lovely instrument it is, what a nice sound etc etc. It cost me less than £900, although is now insured for considerably more.

DD2 played a number of violins when trading up to a full-size one. Her absolute favourite is a rather lovely 16th century Italian violin of serious repute owned by her teacher, but as I don't have millions stashed away, she as to make do with the one we bought and playing her teacher's when teacher is in the mood. I do have her nice 3/4 size that I would love to sell on though.... PM me for info....

I was seriously considering cancelling the train tickets but your posts stopped me! As Floot pointed, we have nothing to lose by coming to Cardiff. At worst, we'll just enjoy a fun day out.

Anyway DS is very keen to visit the shop so he would be upset if I cancel now.

Hi, I'm a pro player & teacher & it's taken me forever to find the right violin & I have lost a great deal of money trying so thought I'd share my experience. My £800 & £1200 violins I own are worth nothing anymore because the Chinese new market are so incredibly strong they are simply better in most cases upto around £2000 mark now! When I was in London, I used to travel to Hamilton Caswell in Bristol but I have since discovered never to use a dealer but a luthier who specialises in set up. I now use Simon Watkin in Coates (Cambridgeshire) & what a discovery it has been! I also own a viola worth around £5k & dh has a cello worth £3k both have been worked on by Simon & are considerably better for the experience. Many dealers will try to sell you violins worth many thousands on the presumption they will sound better & will stock instruments upto 4 or 5 k with very poor set ups to prove that the more expensive instruments are better. But in my experience you would have to go way over £50k to find anything significantly better than a well set up 2-3k instrument. I am more than a little smug when I sit in professional orchestras & my violin or viola outplays instruments worth £20k or more! (These are the words of others in these orchestras not my own!)
A good luthier will offer you a service & an honest opinion of your instrument & will tell you if it is good enough to cope with his deluxe set up (top quality bridge, soundpost & Evah Gold Strings) or not. Simon recently sold me a new violin for under £2k & it is quite honestly the best violin I've ever played on! It will take time & trust. He doesn't generally loan instruments out on approval & will generally order an instrument in from China for you. Set up will take a couple of hours of listening to you play & making incredibly fine adjustments to the bridge with his file but you can literally hear the instrument improving as he goes.
As for auction, I bought my viola on a whim at auction & it ended up being worth considerably more than I paid for it. (Dealers mark up by 2/3rds of what they pay), but I've also bought other instruments that have been worth less than I paid so I wouldn't suggest using them unless you have far more experience than me!
Simon's deluxe set up costs around £250 for bridge, soundpost & Evah Gold Strings. If you buy a 2-3k violin from him & need to upgrade again in a few years time what have you got to lose? He guarantees giving you back whatever you paid for it if you upgrade!
My bigger concern with your ds is your lack of concern for the bow he plays with. I highly recommend upgrading the bow ASAP as a good bow teaches you a good technique. In my teaching I find a poor quality bow encourages poor technique & there are some very good quality carbon fibre ones around at good prices now. I would use a large dealer to find a bow he likes (Caswell or Cambridgestrings) & would probably spend £1k each on a good Chinese violin & a carbon bow (my favourite brand in codabow but there are others that are almost as good, just avoid arcus they are a waste of money).
Good luck whatever you choose to do.

What I forgot to say is that a large dealer has many instruments that it will take him a long time to sell, so in my mind they are poor quality instruments. Somebody that specialises in trying out different brands of instruments from China & sending back any he doesn't like surely has a more personal approach & will only have a few instruments hanging in his studio because he knows where to find the best ones?

Kutik Would it be too outing to ask you which luthiers you tried?

We are also 4/4 violin hunting. We have a 3/4 from Stringers and we will go and look at Stringers for the 4/4 but will keep our options open.

Fantastic insights stringmealong, thank you for taking the time to post. I don't know about kutik but I will definitely be adding the idea of trying out a Chinese made violin to my violin hunting plans. Also asking someone if actually re-setting up my existing instrument would be worth a try. I'm not sure if it used to sound better, or if my expectations have gone up. Even playing with amateurs, there are a lot of very naice instruments hanging around in the commuter belt!

I seem to know a good few people playing modern Chinese violas but hardly any playing modern violins. I remember totally struggling with the setup issue last time I was instrument hunting.

May I ask how long you've had your Chinese violin? One thing that put me off was some people saying they're making the wood too thin so it sounds great now but may not in 10 years' time. At least I think that's what was said. But I guess that's why it's better to buy via a recommended expert.

Mine isn't actually Chinese but I know plenty of people with them - I'm not suggesting factory made stentors or the like here but proper handmade by expert makers! I also have a Chinese bow who's history is that the top French bow makers went out to China & trained loads of people in the craft. It's a great bow & a fraction of the cost of a French bow!
Bridges die off after a couple of years, I aim to get a new bridge & soundpost every 2 years on my instruments. The difference is astonishing!

Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Is your lovely violin modern or old? I have a Chinese handmade bow too, love it
And ulp, I'm about 25 years overdue a new violin bridge then Perhaps I can fall back in love with existing violin and save a fortune. Thanks again, you're a star.

DS's 1/2 cello cost under £300 to buy, but almost the same again to set up decently - new nut, bridge, strings, fingerboard adjustment etc, all done by Cardiff Violins. The difference in the sound quality afterwards was amazing, and we've just been given £300 for it part ex, so totally worthwhile.
The full size cello we've bought from the same shop has had adjustments made to make it more lively at the top, but may still need tweaking.
DS tried lots of Chinese cellos at £2/3k and liked them...but once we knew he had grown enough for a full size, we decided to look for something he could keep long-term, plus his teacher didn't like the Chinese ones as much as the Bohemian we eventually decided on.
It's hard to know how a new instrument will 'play in', and there seems to be quite a variation between even instruments of the same make and model.

Floortoot I'm not talking about factory Chinese, I'm talking handmade there is a massive difference! I agree that there is a risk involved when buying any new instrument but the risk is whether or not it will improve. There is no chance of it getting worse!

I know they won't get worse, but if you are buying in the hope they may improve in a particular way, you may be disappointed.
As I said, we've just bought an antique cello for DS, after trying everything in our price range, slightly above and slightly under, in 2 specialist shops. Its provenance is sketchy, so we have little idea how much it has been played recently, but it is coming to life more and more as DS plays it AND we loved it when he first tried it.
DH and I are both professional musicians, and DS's teacher plays in one of the BBC orchestras, so we feel happy we've made the right choice. Now to buy a bow...!

Stringmealong, thank you for sharing your wisdom. A luthier actually said the same thing as you about the price of the quality violin professionals own that they are not necessarily £10k+.

I agree with you about bow. DS had been using a carbon fibre bow which was less than £100 but was good enough for his 3/4 violin. Unfortunately it became unplayable recently so he is using a crappy spare at the moment. We are going to buy a quality bow for 4/4 and has enough budget spared for it. The teacher suggested we should shop one by one, so for now we are focusing on violin. But we will look for a bow probably at around Easter (hopefully we will have a violin by then).

NeverEver, have you checked JP Guilvier? They are as reputable as Stringer I think. I haven't been to Stringer, only because the teacher didn't seem to be very keen. But I think we should pop in as so many people praise the shop! A question is when, as DS's back to school now and as he attends JD on Saturdays he can't make a visit unless I take him out of school...

By the way, you may be interested in watching this.

Why are some of you spending several thousand pounds? Are your children playing at, or expecting to reach, a very high level?
DD paid around £200 for a decent second hand instrument. It is fine at grade 8 level.

onlynever, is it full size? And your DD is happy with it (tones, playability, etc)? If yes, then you are very lucky to have found one for the price! Unfortunately it doesn't happen very often I suppose. But I may be wrong.

DS is practically grade zero as he's done no exam on the violin (though he does exams for his second study). We know roughly where he is but his development is not measured by grade syllabus.

Yes, full size. We saw it advertised on EBay, went to try it out. Dd very happy with it. Has recently passed grade 8 on it and plays in good ensembles

When we were considering buying from a strings shop, we were recommended violins at around £800 to £1000. Would then upgrade if went to diploma level/conservatoire, and keep the cheaper violin as a spare.

If DS manages to find a violin under 1k I'm sure we will jump in to grab it! Haven't met one yet.

I assume she has a good bow? How long did it take her to find a bow? It took nearly a year for DS's teacher once! I don't think I can wait that long...

All the luthiers asked me our budget so I was very open about it. But I stopped telling them now. Instead I describe what sort of violins we are after. Hopefully this will widen the choices in a positive way!

I don't know about grades but if you're investing in music to the extent of junior college etc, and can afford it, it makes sense to me to invest in an instrument too. It makes it easier and more rewarding to learn, and they will get better opportunities with a better sound. And if they have that degree of enthusiasm it's probably at very least a hobby for life.

Yes, catkind, I am on the mission of finding a violin that DS falls head over heels in love with. We are a very much ordinary family with modest income. It's a big investment for us. But we are prepared to give DS a gift. For some it may be ridiculous (he is only 10!) but for us it's worth it... DS would sleep with violin if he was allowed. He loves violin.

Well, he may find his dream violin much less than our maximum budget. Then the rest will be put back to the saving account for future upgrade!

When I was 17 my parents paid £800 for my violin (this included a case and bow!). It's a 1973 Leo Asheur from Mittenwald.

I loaned 3 violins from the man I purchased this from and was aesthetically drawn more to the 2 more expensive violins I eventually rejected as they looked more like what I thought I wanted. However, based on tone, I kept going back to the slightly orange looking one, which needed work on the varnish. 18 years later, I still love my fiddle which has mellowed and become more beautiful with age. It's seen me through a music degree, I play regularly in a string quatert, ceilidh band, and a very good local orchestra. My violin has been valued recently at around 4.5-5k.

When my violin was in for repair, my local luthier loaned a violin in his shop which he was selling on behalf of the maker. This violin was on sale at 6.5k. I honestly have never found an instrument such hard work to play. It was heavy and clumbersome, and I struggled to produce a decent tone even though I'm a pretty good player.

What I guess I'm trying to say is, don't try violins purely based on price. Try a variety from different price brackets and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Like previous posters have said, a good bridge, strings that suit the instrument, and a good bow, are so important in producing a good sound.

I can recommend Peter Hall in Beverley, though appreciate this will be a fair distance for you to travel. Peter gives sound, impartial advice, and won't try to sell something to you if it isn't right for you.

www.peterhallviolins.com

Good luck and enjoy your shopping expeditions!