4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

However, quite many committed young musicians seem to have very good instruments. I was thinking how brave their parents were!

I was also wondering how common to have the second instrument as a spare or school use. DS's teacher doesn't like this idea. She likes DS to practise on the same violin. However, we can borrow a nice violin (valued £2k - £3k) for £40 per term. Perhaps, we borrow one for school use?

DS can leave it at school always (so no chance of losing during the journey) and just collect it at the end of each term...? His main instrument can be used for home practice, JD or other musically more important occasions???

Kutik, I really sympathise with your dilemma. It's really difficult to know what is the right amount to spend.

One piece of advice that took a bit of pressure off me was this: your child's first full-size violin is NOT going to be their "forever" violin. They will be very different musicians at 15/16. They will know much more clearly what kind of sound they want, what kind of music they want to play and what kind of violinist they want to be. So perhaps look to get an excellent violin (within a budget) with a lovely tone that fits your DC for the next, say, three years. And then upgrade when they are more mature musicians.

I have to say £6000 seems a bit high at this point, but if you can afford it and it will retain its value there's nothing wrong with spending that much. Many young musicians on junior conservatoire track borrow instruments from the Benslow Trust (routinely worth about £15,000 and the couple that I've heard are nothing special - go figure!).

Anything of interest in Cardiff?

I agree with cingolimama that the violin you buy now will probably be outgrown in a few years if your son stays serious about music and wants to be a violinist. It is possible that you will find a £6,000 instrument with the complexity, richness and scope that will keep a student happy through conservatoire, but it is pretty unlikely.

I think that any violin that is in good shape, healthy and resonant, fairly even and not hard to play will be good for now. Our children all had good sounding, not-brand-new instruments worth £1-3,000 to start with.

It is a good sign that the shops are offering cash back for trade, but remember that next time your son wants a violin, it will probably be in a different shop, maybe in a different country, so really the best thing is to have an independent knowledgeable dealer tell you he thinks you are getting a sensible deal. His next instrument could easily also be borrowed or haggled over or got through word of mouth.

Of course your son should be thrilled with his new violin, and he does sound like he is very thoughtful, but make sure to pay attention to the opinion of more experienced people. It is very very easy to fall in love with a particular quality of an instrument which is not actually the best choice in the long(er) run (perhaps one with a very sweet sound under the ear but not much variety, or one that is similar to the one you already play but louder). Also, your son might try a Strad right now and not like or sound good on it.

The other thing you might already have noticed is that most shops have very flattering acoustics, which make it really hard to tell how an instrument really sounds.

I was told that we could get something decent under £1K - to go up to grade 8 level. However, as you have money and your son is serious about violin, I would look at paying up to £3K. Then upgrade if he ever plays violin really seriously, and keep it as a spare. By which I mean, he can play it if a string breaks, or similar.

Would recommend trying Woodbridge Violins in Suffolk. Fantastic choice and knowledge.

ILovePandas, thank you for the suggestion. Yes, I have heard of the shop being very very good. Somehow I couldn't remember the name when we started hunting so kind of missed it out. It's roughly the same journey as Cardiff by train and car, so yes, it will be on my list and will consider a visit if needed.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on how much to spend, cingo, claras and Claris. I agree, DS's taste would change, and £1k - £3k would perfectly satisfy DS's needs.

I should have thought of our top mark more carefully. But hey-ho, I let DS try up to £6k everywhere, and some luthiers even let him try £10k ranges (without my knowledge). DS didn't always choose the most expensive ones though he didn't choose the cheaper end neither. We can re-start all again with a new top mark (£3k?). But when I asked advice on the starting price, almost all luthiers agreed we should look at £3k up. I may have to search out totally different venues for a fresh start...

Currently he's narrowed it down to three violins which are £5.5k to £6k, and his most favourite is £6k.

Cardiff was great. We planned to do some sight-seeing but ended up spending our entire time in Cardiff at the shop. They were very helpful. They let DS try many violins, let him play in different rooms (small and large), let him listen to his chosen violins played by their staff, and they didn't kick us out nor didn't show us any sign of annoyance even though we stayed there so long (we were the last customer to leave on the day)!

DS picked a handmade new violin which we have to return early next week if we decide not to purchase.

We are showing the teacher three violins including the one from Cardiff this weekend. They are all lovely, and relatively new (1952 - 2015) and all are 100% cash-back for trade. They are £5.5k - £6k but two of them will go down quite a bit as they are happy to take DS's old 3/4 and basically they are more willing to sell for several reasons, which makes the Cardiff one the most expensive.

DS seems to like the Cardiff violin most at the moment, but £6k feels a bit too much to be honest. DS loves music and loves violin, but we don't see it as his possible career. He is too young to know that, and also he is interested in many other areas. We have had the money put aside for his 4/4 violin, but we are not wealthy at all. So, more than £5k doesn't feel right. We've got to buy a bow too!!

These days we are so busy visiting luthiers and testing loaned violins, no much actual practice is happening I'm afraid. He's got a piano exam next week. Haven't heard scales nor pieces for a while...

We did a quick sound test today. He still liked the Cardiff one most. Apparently the violin makes him feel like he is part of the sound. He loves the tone very much - hopefully it's not the case of what claras pointed - a very sweet sound under the ear but not much variety...

We have three lovely violins. Seriously they are all great. We are spoilt.

What does his teacher say?

We haven't shown her yet. It'll be this Saturday.

DS has two concerts on the day, one in the afternoon and another in the evening, at a different venue. He has lessons at jd also before and after the concerts. Lots of backwards and forwards between three venues will be happening, and we have to carry three violins with us (as we need to show them to the teacher at jd).

One of them is not insured. Great...

I would highly recommend Bridge violins Sleaford, Lincs.
They can source violins and they also make violins- very very nice ones too!

I would put it on your insurance temporarily.

Regarding cost. Don't forget to factor in the cost for a good bow. The bow makes all the difference.

My old one cost £285, my current one £1500.

Paul, thanks for the suggestion. It's quite far away but I may need it! I am hoping our journey is finally coming to the end. But you never know. DS has already changed his favourite three times! We may have to start all over again and start planning to visit new places...

DressAndGo, we are going to start looking for a bow at Easter. I expect many visits to shops again, so we have to wait DS becomes free from school. He is still using the crappy 3/4 bow which is a pain...

The bow is the magical part

Yes, we are prepared for a long and winding road to find a very special, magical bow. It'll be like Harry Potter's wand.

The teacher liked the violin from Cardiff so we were almost ready to purchase it. But a few things happened (sorry, too complicated to explain all), and now it is going to be returned. We may still purchase it, as DS really loves the sound. But a few things have to be checked by the luthier before we commit to the huge payment.

We have another violin DS likes. But while the Cardiff violin is all round, this one has nicer lower registers but less attractive higher registers (for DS's ear). I told the maker our honest opinion on the phone. Then he said he could adjust the sound to DS's preference if I could bring the violin and DS together. He said adjusting higher sound is much easier than lower sound so it's good that DS likes the lower sound of the violin.

So tomorrow, we are visiting him. DS and I are quite excited to see how he makes the adjustment. If the problem is sorted, it will definitely be a good candidate!

And I realised that it's quite handy to have a luthier who could adjust the sound according to the individual preference.

You can do a certain amount with adjusting the sound post, but instruments usually have a tendency of one sort or another (thinner sound on E string, not enough richness in bass, etc). With fine old instruments, people mess around endlessly with sound post/ bridge, different strings, etc- you can drive yourself crazy. There is a certain amount of placebo effect, and also often instruments sound more resonant for a few days after any adjustment...
It is definitely worth having an adjustment, but be aware that it is a complex process, and might be a bit hard for a 10 year old to know what he thinks, especially on an unfamiliar instrument in an unfamiliar space.

claraschu, thank you for your advice. I know what you mean about a 10 years old. DS appears to know what he is talking about and engages well in the discussion with luthiers without me. However, I am not very sure how much to believe what he says and how he appears, because he is only 10. So I try to get involved as much as I can. I am not a musician but at least a sensible adult.

Unfortunately today I had to leave DS alone with this luthier (and his wife) for quite a while as I ended up messing around with parking (it was a nightmare). When I came back, all the strings had been changed, sound post had been adjusted, the chin rest had been changed (DS complained the discomfort of the previous one), quite a few violins had been tested, and DS was giving a mini concert to the luthier.... I really wanted to see other violins but all was done and DS had decided he would take back the one we brought for the adjustment.

The luthier advised DS to take the violin everywhere and test the sound in as many different places as he can. DS took it to a youth orchestra's rehearsal this evening. He said it sounded much nicer than pre-adjustment and he liked how it sounded in the orchestra.

We'll test the violin for the next few weeks.

That is wonderful, and your son sounds like such a lovely boy. I bet he is learning an enormous amount from this experience. Maybe a 10-year-old has insight and clarity which gets fogged up after decades of searching.

My feeling is that the best way to figure out what you think of an instrument, after you have been playing on it for a week or so, is to play about 3 instruments (preferably one of which you know well) in a largish, not-too-resonant room you know very well, with one or two other people you know well (and aren't trying to impress) who can also play. Then take the instruments to a hall, again just with a trusted teacher or friend, and see how they sound in a larger space. Then see how the instrument sounds in a quartet.

I guess most 10-year-olds wouldn't have the chance to do all of this, and wouldn't really know what to make of it if they did. Usually a child who is lucky enough to get a decent first full size violin, just tries to buy a healthy sounding instrument which takes his fancy and is a reasonable deal from a reputable seller.

You are turning your search into something more than this, having a real adventure, meeting lots of inspiring new people, finding out about an amazing art. Your son sounds like a real star, with a genuine passion for the violin. How lovely-

Kutik thezadventure sounds wonderful! Dd is currently trialling new cellos.....we have decided to keep her old one st School permanently. Much much easier esp as she takes the bus alone many days plus her teacher advised it as too many chances for knocked instruments at school (her friends Cello was pretty much destroyed by a silly joke by someone at another school recently). . It has def made life easier and dd moves between two cellos fine.

string - how does your dd feel about keeping a lesser model at school? My dd grumbles that following a couple of issues with a "friend" playing pranks on dd's good instrument she has to take an old stentor to school groups.

Kutik - I'm still following this incredibly interesting story :)

Bought DS a full size violin five years ago on a trip. When DS tried it recently, he was not happy about the loud sound comparing with his 3/4 violin. And also the A string produced harmonic sound if just bow weight applied. Can I ask claraschu is it the instrument problem or setup problem? The violin cost me around £800 that time and I haven't planned to buy DS a more expensive one yet.

Hi Better if the violin has been sitting around for 5 years, it is almost sure to need a bit of work- new strings, an adjustment to the bridge and sound post, perhaps some glue, and quite a bit of playing. Often, just playing on an instrument for a week or so will make it sound much better...

Sometimes a new instrument can sound startling and brash next to a beloved old instrument, but I would guess that the harmonic sound means that the sound post is out of whack, so the instrument isn't speaking well.

If I were you, I would take the instrument to a violin shop and ask them to have a look at it. If they recommend new strings, you should be aware that sometimes violin shops charge list price, but you can often get a significant discount for the same strings if you buy them on line.

Is the instrument brand new? or is it an older instrument?