4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry, auto correct and typo fails...
My violin is a 1963 Leo Aschauer.

Bought her a mid range bow and decent rosin.
Personally I wouldn't spend thousands unless she was heading for music college. And from what I was told what suits a younger child may well not suit them and their taste when they mature, so best not to buy an expensive violin early.

stickssss, thank you for sharing your wisdom and the information of your luthier. I checked the website, very much interested, would love to visit. I suppose Yorkshire is a bit too far I'm afraid. But I'll keep his details just in case! I think somebody who is following this thread is also benefiting from knowing about Perter Hall. That's the whole purpose of sharing information publicly.

My biggest mistake was telling luthiers our budget upfront. I'm seeing two already-seen luthiers next week. They called me to come again as apparently they have good violins in stock. Unfortunately our budget is already embedded in their head, so they won't call us for anything under £3k.

DS's beginner 1/2 cello was more than £200 and while he passed the first couple of grades on it with fantastic marks, when we took it to be looked at by a specialist shop, they were amazed that bed been able to play it at all. We spent almost as much again having it set up properly and it was worth every penny.
There is a false economy in cheap instruments for young students. They make playing so much harder, which can affect technique and can discourage students.
We've invested in a good instrument because it is just that - an investment. It will only ever go up in value. It will take DS through to music college level at least, at which point he can keep it as a spare, or if he decides to study something else, he can keep it for a hobby or we will sell it. In the meantime, he gets to learn on an instrument he loves playing and which rewards his efforts - even in the few weeks he's had it, the sound has opened up enormously.

Kutik, is there anyway you can come to Cardiff via Bristol? I definitely think a trip to Bristol Violins would be worthwhile - Nick there was the person that suggested we halve our budget and look at everything from that price upwards. He also recommends matching the bow to the instrument, Harry Potter wand style! A really knowledgeable and honest guy, and absolutely no pressure to buy - we had a cello on loan for over 2 weeks.

Floot, thank you for your suggestion. I actually looked up the violin shop in Bristol after I read your earlier post. I thought of trying to make two visits but in the end decided to stick to just one. We are travelling by train so timing is a bit restricted.

Also choosing instruments can be quite exhausting, for younger ones especially. You need to be alerted for several hours. DS will lose his focus after one shop - I know this from experience!

One shop a day is a golden rule for this particular child.

Kutik, ditto! By the end of our original visit to Cardiff Violins, DS was on the floor! It was SO intense, particularly as he felt he preferred instruments his teacher didn't - VERY stressful.

Floot

By the way, has the teacher approved of your DS's choice after all?

What do you think of a luthier who doesn't play the violin?

Our piano tuner doesn't play the piano but we have no problem with his service. But it's not that he 'makes' the piano, just tuning by using a little gadget.

Now, how important for a luthier to be able to play the violin in order to be a really good, trustworthy luthier? How come they can make one or adjust things to find desirable sound if they can't play at all?

We went to see a new luthier today. He runs a tiny workshop at his home. Couldn't find much about him on the internet so it was a bit of gamble.

DS tried three European antiques at first. He played from the lowest note to highest note on each string, tested how easy to play harmonic and spiccato and other techniques I don't know the name of, checked the response by playing a couple of fast passages, slow and long bow with vibrato, double-stops and so on. He then explained to the luthier things he liked and disliked about each violin. DS certainly becomes a bit of an expert...

The luthier had some Chinese workshop made violins which were at around £1.5k. But he said DS wouldn't like them and put them away. DS wanted to try and begged him to bring them back! They were fine, but DS didn't like them as the luthier said.

In the end DS picked a violin made by the luthier himself. Because it was made when he was younger it was not as expensive as his current violins. However, it is still quite a push for us. We've got to leave money for a bow, and also other small things like a shoulder rest and a case... Anyway it's in our living room at the moment. Not sure if DS still likes it tomorrow morning!

Tomorrow, we are going back to a luthier we have already saw (and returned his violin as we didn't like it!). He told me the violins he would like to show us are at around £4k, so not too expensive. Gosh, I can't believe I said that. My sense of money has totally gone out of the window after seeing so many quality violins in the last couple of weeks!

I am totally utterly happy with a violin of £1k or so though. I may have to change the whole approach and re-start things all again.

Cardiff is on Tuesday!!

Appreciate the update. Yes, it's incredible how your sense of what's appropriate to spend creeps up and up until you find yourself thinking "quite reasonable really, at £4000!".

Please keep us in the loop. And best of luck.

I'm a luthier ( sadly no stock for sale at the moment ). In answer to the query about luthiers who don't play, I don't think there are any who wouldn't be able to pick up a violin and play it well enough to assess it tonally, or listen to it being played and be able to offer the appropriate adjustments to help it's player get the most from it. I don't consider myself a player although I have grade 5 and studied other instruments at post grad level. Observing luthiers who play to an extremely high level, I know that can help with a sale because they can make an average violin sound exceptional to most ears. I definitely recommend a trip to Peter Hall in Beverley for those who are searching, he is very knowledgeable and experienced.

Yes - don't forget to get the luthier to play all the violins your ds tries as well & stand well back to hear which ones project best. I'm lucky because I rehearse occasionally with my luthier in a lovely old church. It's amazing how much you learn about an instrument by hearing it played by somebody else from the opposite end of a large building! 😁

cingolimama, thank you for wishing me good luck!

HerOutdoors, I appreciate your kind advice. It's so nice to hear from luthires, teachers and pro-musicians. You are not the first person who told me about Peter Hall. Unfortunately it's just too far away... But I am sure someone near him who is lurking and following this thread is diligently taking note.

Stringmealong, I asked a luthier if he could play for DS so that DS could listen to the sound away from his ear. He said he couldn't play and advised me to ask DS's teacher to play for us...

Today's luthier used to be a pro-violinist. I asked him his opinion on a luthier who can't play. His answer was, playing ability is not necessary to be a good luthier... Obviously he could have sold himself as a luthier who could play like a pro (well, he was a pro). Confused. Or there is no right and wrong??

DH wants us to cancel tomorrow's trip due to snow...

No snow in Cardiff, Kutik, more's the pity!

Forgot to answer you question, Kutik - let's just say that DS came round to his teacher's and our choice of cello, after a blindfolded listening test of all the instruments in the running ( his initial favourite was relegated to last place!) It emerged that his original favourite was his favourite because it was the easiest to play immediately ( don't forget, he has gone straight from a 1/2 to a full size, so a big change). Once he heard what the other instrument could sound like, he picked it and now, after a few weeks' practice on it be fined playing it absolutely fine.

Get the violin first, then get the bow. You need to find the now that plays well with the instrument.

Forget about price. It's all about tone and playability.

Honestly? I would say you'll learn loads with this experience. In a year or so, with what you've learnt now and in the years after the experience, you might want to put some of it into practice.

A good violin is always tradable. Once you've played better, you'll know more what you want.

Don't get anything that you don't feel you can trade in again.

It's good to go somewhere with lots to compare.

Due to materials - wood and quality of wood and fixtures and fittings, prices can vary.

Honestly? I would say you'll learn loads with this experience. In a year or so, with what you've learnt now and in the years after the experience, you might want to put some of it into practice.

By this, I mean that don't think the expensive instrument you buy now will be the 'forever' instrument. He'll be growing and changing, don't be in a position where you don't feel you can trade in again. It's not a bad thing to change your mind later. Some people get the instrumentthey love immediately, some take a while to find 'the one'.

Yes, which is why I think it makes sense to get a decent instrument for the first full size one, if the child is really serious about it and you can afford it, but not to spend a lot of money. A child's taste in violins is likely to change in between age 12 and age 18, for instance. And selling violins on is not necessarily that easy, and you are likely to lose money on it. Also, 12 year olds are not well known for looking after their belongings. Likely to leave it on public transport, tread on it, etc.

He wasn't Albanian was he OP? ( please ignore my question if I'm being indiscrete!)

DressAndGo and Clarissalarissa, thanks for your advice.

We don't get any information of each violin prior to testing the sound. We don't know the maker, origin, new or old, nor price, until DS makes his choice. So it's been strictly purely based on tone and playability.

But currently two of DS's favourite are both £6k.... We were prepared to pay that much when we started the hunting. However, I am not so sure now.

Yes, we like to buy what DS loves most (within our budget), and yes, we like to buy a decent violin. Both violins offer 100% cash-back for trade so when we want to upgrade/change, there is no fear of losing money. But still, how much is too much or too little? How much is decent enough? A 10 years old really needs such an expensive violin just because he loves it and is a keen violinist and that we can afford it?

'Forget about the price', 'get a decent instrument', 'don't spend a lot of money'... I totally agree, but I am struggling to see the fine line between them...

HerOutdoors, I don't think none of luthiers we met was Albanian. I supposed all of them were English. But I didn't ask them their nationality so I don't know!

Just remember he'll be taking it with him. Will you be relaxed if it gets knocked/ left at rehearsal?

My first full size cost £250 ( don't underestimate the wonders a good luthier can do setting up a basic instrument)

My college/ university instrument cost £900 - this one taught me what I wanted in an instrument

My 'proper' one - post uni cost £6500. This will last for me to pass on to my children. I could have paid more, but don't want to. I could have paid less for the tone, but it came down to comfort - this one fitted me perfectly.

I bought the bow after.

Ps pay what you want to. Just don't be in a position where you're stressing about its safety if he lets others have a go on it etc..

I know how much is too much is very subjective. £1k can be a lot but can be very little. The level of commitment and seriousness would also be the key whether it's worth spending THAT much. However, while I can say he is quite keen, I don't know if he is keen enough or serious enough!

He is a member of the National Children's Orchestra and an invitation-only local youth orchestra, attends a London JD, will be a music scholar at senior school from this coming September. Does it sound 'serious enough'? While I am asking this, I know it's again very much subjective, and only we will know the answer.

I think I've started thinking too much. But I guess it's not a bad thing. After all, it's a lot of money! I just need to let myself confused a little while...

DressAndGo, taking it with him is another big worry, yes. I think I'll be all grey pretty quickly...