4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

That is interesting GrannyHaddock. I assume you are talking about fairly cheap bows, because of course the best bows tend to be mid 19th century, and certainly have retained (or increased) both their quality and their value.
Don't you think brand new bows tend to be a bit stiff?

That means if we buy a good new bow it will last at least for 100 years?

Well, no, I don't mean cheap bows. The 19th century bows you mention sell for tens, scores, of thousands and are unlikely to be of interest to the readers of this discussion! There were plenty of fine bows made last century that are more affordable and and will give good service. I do have a newish bow which is quite sturdy, but well suited to my purposes. I haven't tried enough new wooden bows to form a general opinion.

I think pernambuco bows do last well. People are talking about spending 1/3 of the value of the violin on a bow, so up to a couple of thousand, which could buy a decent older bow, though I bet a newish bow would be better.

I didn't want people to think that it is as simple as old bows don't last.

I don't think we'll spend more than £1000 (more likely around £500?) for a bow at this stage unless DS has a very strong preference which I doubt he will.

In which case I'd stick to under £150 Carbon then - Elida trading have a fantastic range & will post them. My personal favourite is the one with a veneer (sounds weird but I've yet to find a student not fall in love with it). £90 I think. Once they can control that they'll be ready for a very nice Coda or Musing bow & they'll still have a decent spare!

I checked the website and was tempted to order the one with a veneer but hesitated. I've been constantly told DS would need a decent bow so I was just wondering if DS is at a right stage for the bow and if so how long it would last till we have to start a serious bow hunt. The teacher said it would be good for DS to have a decent wooden bow for learning point of views. But she would never really tell us 'what we should do'.

So it's kind of left to us to decide. Of course we could ask her approval but she said bows were very personal so she wouldn't say 'no' unless it's very obviously a bad choice.

Bows are personal, but some are definitely better than others. I would get hold of a few and let him take them to a lesson - to see how he plays with them etc.

Thanks, ColourOfRain. I think we will make a trip to a shop or maybe order some from Elida once all the exam and performances are done in June. Hopefully we can get a decent but a probably-to-be-a-spare-in-future bow before we send the violin back to the maker for re-varnishing. Then we can finally say good bye to the 3/4 bow!

Also - just had a thought - better doesn't necessarily mean easier. It's very tempting to go for a bow that lays like your old one - because you are used to controlling that. A better bow might need some time to learn how to play with it.

It's a minefield. I hate to say it, but I found bow shopping much harder!

Just a point, though. My bow doesn't cost a third of my instrument. I couldn't afford that yet. It's one step away, though. It does me just fine and actually, I've learnt a lot from this bow that will help me when I buy the next one.

Plays, not lays.

ColourOfRain, now you made me think if DS wasn't particularly keen on some bows he tried because he was judging it based on the bow he got used to. There was an Old German bow (early 20th), relatively reasonable, but the luthier was praising a lot more than the one which cost twice of it and new. But DS didn't like it (he said 'alright'). But it seems he should try some for a while to see if any of them 'works'. But how can tell they are 'good'? Follow the luthiers/bow makers suggestion then show the teacher? Then select from there?

What is the 3/4 size bow? That might help

Also, a good rule of thumb is that you will need to spend 4 times as much to get the same quality wood as carbon fibre - so if your bow budget is £500 Carbon fibre is by far the better option! I have a wooden bow made by a top London maker which has definitely lost some of it's spring (1980's) & is outplayed by my carbon fibre bow which was bought for less. Also the environmental impact of pernambuco (& in some cases ivory) have led to difficulties travelling abroad with wooden bows (very stringent rules on them not being allowed in many countries), so if you ever want to travel with your instrument a carbon fibre bow is essential!

I don't know any detail of the 3/4 bow I'm afraid. We bought it as a spare so it was the cheapest available in the shop. I'm not sure if it was new or old neither. However the shop charges relatively lower than other London shops so it could actually be more than £45 elsewhere. Nevertheless it's not a quality piece I am sure.

We have the same amount of budget we spent on the violin for a bow so we could buy a lovely bow if we want. But as someone pointed, it would be a waste for a mere 10 years old, so as a transition bow I would say at around £500. However, if we find something good for DS at more than £500 we can go for that.

We travel a lot, especially Far East, so getting a carbon bow at this stage may be the most sensible. It can be uses as a transition bow, a spare bow and a travel bow.

However, DS doesn't want to have a carbon bow and has been looking forward to getting a wooden bow for a long time, so I am sure he is expecting it'll be a wooden bow and I will need to persuade him tp make him pick a carbon bow!

Most frustrating- just had the first luthier we visited really quite abusive on the phone as we hadn't returned the violin. I said he'd given us an unspecified extension. He claims this would have only ever been for a couple of days. So rude. Talking over me and implying I was stupid. Really hostile. Looks like the transaction won't be through him. At least dd preferred another violin so won't be too upset when she comes back to find it gone. Just shocked he would talk to me like that

Yes, persuade him I would as anything under £2000 is far superior to wood. Just have a look on the Caswell's site (the biggest bow supplier in the uk) & you'll see that they don't even bother to stock wooden bows in that price range anymore! Arcus do veneered Carbon bows but you'd have to spend £2000 to get one of decent quality. Coda, Musing & Glasser all have very good reputations. The only reason the Elida one I pointed out is that cheap is because it's Chinese which actually offer fantastic value for money - European you would be looking at £400 for the same quality

se22mother
Sorry for your experience, but you have to understand that not every customer is as trustworthy as you! You wouldn't believe some of the stories I have heard from luthiers over the years of people stealing or abusing their trust - it's no wonder they are so skittish when customers go quiet on them!

He was really incredibly rude. I genuinely thought an extension had not been specified. Not had it on the email trail. Refused to listen to a word I said. In my industry clients are spoken to politely (even when you don't feel polite).

se22 Sorry you had such a terrible experience. I've not encountered anyone rude so far. Don't deal with him! Hope you find something else from someone more polite.

se22 very sorry for such an unpleasant experience. I was wondering if it's the one who I could see slightly aggressive personality behind a friendly smile. He was not rude but he was not very happy when we returned his violin and told me we would 'starve' in the end if we didn't compromise with what we were offered now.

Kutik - yes the one we spoke of......

Dd had a fantastic experience trialling violins and bows elsewhere last Friday. Provided her teacher agrees we will take both......

Ah I see. Not surprise to be honest. Forget about him and focus on the bright side of your journey. Glad your DD has been enjoying her violin (and a bow) hunt. It is really educational isn't it?