4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

BettertoChange
Are you talking about the luthier at DS's jd? Does your DC go to the same jd as DS?

I was supposed to go to the basketball play-off final at O2 with DS yesterday (I used to play basketball), but I gave DH the ticket and let the boys go so that I could see Luthier 6. He wanted to show me his violins. DS has a performance this week and an exam any time in a couple of weeks time so we cannot be violinless after returning the Irish one...

Luthier 6 explained the bad practice of contemporary luthiers that they tend to make the front panel very thin to make the sound nice under the ear, but it won't really project in a big hall, especially after playing for a while, say 20-30 mins, the sound will start getting small so not great for an hour or more performance for instance. Also, those thin panelled violins may sound nice and bright, but actually quite thin and empty in sound, so it doesn't really produce lots of colours and depth when violinists want to express more.

He hasn't played DS's violin nor heard DS playing it so he is not saying DS's violin is one of the productions of the bad practice. He was just telling me some of tendencies of modern violins. I heard of this kind of comment before so it seems common belief for some though I don't know how true it is.

He checked DS's violin. He said he could see some inexperienced technique (which we knew - it was one of the luthier's earlier productions) but it was well made and he liked the f hole shapes and nothing wrong with the wood too. But he strongly disagreed with the varnish. It'll look awful in a year time. He also said the panels were too thin.

He then showed me two Cremona violins. Both are fairly new so no antique but one of them came from a family of seven generations of woodcavers and another was made by a former head of a violin making school in Cremona. He thinks they have as good, if not better, sound as DS's violin. And more importantly (for him) the value won't go down when we decide to sell.

Interestingly, the thickness of the front panel of both violins seems no difference from DS's violin.... I can compare the thickness through the f hole only as I don't have any special equipment. But both are around 2 mm. I'm very confused...

I could see Luthier 6's point of the selling value for financial safety though. Basically, no matter how lovely the sound is, DS's violin may struggle to find a buyer when we want to sell as it will look awful due to the fragile and chippy varnish, and also no one would really be interested in an 'Irish make'. So if all have nice sound it's no brainer to go for Cremona violins, that's he is saying.

The thickness of the panel will vary in different places on the front, and differences will be very subtle (I am guessing differences of .01 to .1 of a mm), so often not really visible.

I am sorry you are having this worry now. I already gave my 2 cents worth months ago, so won't add anything more, but you really have my sympathy: it is hard to buy an instrument, whatever the level you are looking for. Could you still return the violin at this point?

In case you decide to stick with this violin, I will just add that the instruments which dealers tend to approve of often don't sound the best. The instrument I owned which dealers loved the most was early 20th century Italian, and as boring as hell to play (would be worth a lot of money now if I had kept it).

Yes the thickness of the panel is not all the same but Luthier 6 didn't check it properly like using an equipment but just gave it a glance. All he could see was the thickness at the f hole like me. So I was a bit...

I agree with the dealer's point of views often being different from the player's point of views. I will see if his Cremona sounds as good or even better than DS's.

Our choices are to return or to have it re-varnished. I need to know pros and cons of the process. Ruining otherwise lovely sound violin is the last thing I would like to do.

Some makers thin the front in the f-holes area to to lighten the appearance. About 1/8 inch, 3.2 mm is usual for a violin front, though if the wood was very dense it could be thinner. Did the man measure all over the front? I can't imagine any gadget that could do that, or was it electronic?
And yes, clara the value of a violin is measured more by the maker's name and reputation than the sound it makes, which as we know is completely subjective. It is hard to know buying a new instrument especially by a young maker, to judge how it will develop, whether it is worth the price and if you will break even, lose or gain. New makers come into favour and some fade away. When I was a young player, Instruments by the Capela brothers were highly regarded, but they are not sought after now.
Revarnishing is a minefield. Even if a maker's varnish is faulty, by replacing it the violin's authenticity is lost.

What a roller coaster you are on Kutik

Oh, Kutik you are incredible. Such patience and stamina! So sorry you're going through this stress - just when you thought it was done and dusted.

You've certainly done "due diligence" (and then some) on this particular violin. FWIW, if you don't return it, it's always going to be a worry. Essentially, now that you've had these many luthier's opinions, you will never feel secure with this instrument.

Thanks for flowers and all the kind words. So glad I started this thread. Your kindness keeps me sane!!

Admittedly I was a bit (actually quite a lot) panicky last couple of days. Felt like being thrown into a black hole, not sure which way was up and down!

BUT I AM BACK. Yes, BOUNCED BACK!!! 100%. Um, may be 99%...

I'm afraid I can't write the details yet as I like to be very cautious (I don't know who is reading this thread!). But all I can tell you for now is I've gained my sanity back and know what I have to do and will handle this horrible situation alright. I will of course report back to you all once it's sorted.

kxxx

kutik - you are amazing! Can’t wait to hear how all of this was sorted out (only if you want to share though...). Have an early from me.

Glad you've got a plan to get it sorted

I grabbed and drunk the glass in a second, Taggie! Thank you!

Trumpet

Phew Kutik so glad you have a plan. I've been watching this thread constantly as we're about to go shopping for Ds's full size. I'm terrified after your experience. Please keep us posted.

Also,some advice if possible. I messaged ds's violin teacher who can be a bit of a diva/Control freak to say we are going up to violin dealers next week as it's half term and would he like to come and give us his opinion. He is away and has requested that we don't do anything at all until he comes back. Violin is going to be a birthday present for ds who turns 12 at the end of June. We will be part exchanging his current 3/4 so he won't have a violin to play. A friend of his has offered her Gliga Gama full size for him to try and use till his birthday. Teacher isn't sure about our choice of dealer (Woodbridge Violins in Suffolk) as he's had a few students come back to him with issues with their violins they have bought from Woodbridge. We don't have many free weekends between now and ds's birthday because of other things going on so we would prefer to go next week really.

Do we just go anyway and be guided by the Luthier or do we go "window shopping" but don't commit or wait till teacher can come but worried about his attitude towards dealer.

Help please 😩

You don't have to commit to anything. In your situation I would accept the loan of your friend's violin, then go shopping as planned. If you find anything you like, ask to trial them for a couple of weeks - take them back with you and show them to the teacher. If he disapprove you can always just take them back. How far are you from the violin shop? You don't need DS with you to buy or return the violin.

That was basically what we did. Someone lent us a full-sized while we shop at various places at most one hour drive/public transport away.

At one point we had 4 extra violins in the house. All of which we have returned.

I would also say to DS that while it will be his birthday present, there is no guarantee that he will get it on the day. Would he accept that? Ideally you don't want to be in a hurry. That can make it quite stressful!

I agree with neverever disorganised that sounds like a plan . Woodbridge is our local shop and I think it's very well respected so it can't hurt to look and try ? and then the teacher can give her opinion

GrannyHaddock it is not the name and reputation only, but also the craftsmanship, which impresses makers. Sometimes a fantastic sounding instrument has some very rough workmanship which raises a sneer from a dealer. Sometimes a well crafted instrument doesn't sound great...

Good luck Kutik!

Over time, poor craftsmanship is exposed, affecting a maker's reputation. The approx 40 lbs of pressure on a violin top will find out weaknesses in the construction.

I am sorry to frighten you just before you are starting your hunt disorganised. Unfortunately there are those who do bad business but also there are those who try to save the reputation and do right things while making the end meet. I met both and the latter saved me recently. So life is not too bad after all the traumatic event!

I've never dealt with Woodbridge but as you know there are quite a few who trust and use them on the monthly music thread. So far I've heard only good things and Russel sounds like a decent guy.

I would visit him as you initially planned and choose a couple with him. I never thought even a second that I had to decide and buy on spot. You can take them home, play in different rooms, show the teacher, etc. The teacher may like it. And if not, the worst thing you have to do is to drive back to return.

I would like to hear what you find there! Good luck!

Also, if you can, find a trustworthy, knowledgeable luthier to check the violin. The teacher can assess it from the player's point of views and it's the most important thing really, but you may like to make sure if it's in a healthy condition for your DS to use for many years. You don't want to end up paying too much for maintenance, etc.

OK, time to reveal my solution!

So, I made frantic phone calls to the dealer on Saturday telling them I had to return the violin. I was told it wold be difficult as they had already paid to the maker so offered a part-exchange or re-varnishing instead. At the point I was not sure if I would like to get another violin from the same dealer so I refused both proposals and insisted returning. They went to talk to the maker, and later on they told me they would take it back as they didn't want to leave us so unhappy. The maker accepted to refund (knowing how hard living of violin making, I feel pain to write this part).

However, I asked them to give me a few days before making any decision, and arranged a final talk on Tuesday. I was panicking and I was aware of it. So I didn't want to let myself jump in to reach any conclusion. Needed to think a bit.

Before exposing the full story, I need to make sure one more thing, so sorry will write the rest after that. It'll take a couple of days.

But all I can tell you is we are happy after all. Some may disagree with our choice but at least DS is happy.

@NeverEver
After I read your post about Thwaites I went to their website and saw a link which took me to their shop for accessories such as strings and all those small things. Now the link seems to be removed and I cannot find it on their website. Do you know the website of their accessory shop by any chance??

Sorry, found one. Please ignore my previous post. Sorry!