4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

A slightly annoying thing about this re-varnish business is it will interfere the timing of our bow hunt. I was going to start our bow hunt once some important performances and exam are finished. But now we are sending the violin back to the maker for re-varnishing instead, so our bow hunt will be put on hold for I don't know how long. DS has been using a spare crappy bow since his carbon bow was broken. It really isn't great. The hair keeps coming off. But it's not worth rehairing. Not sure if it lasts till we can start our bow hunt!!!

Kutik - why don't you replace the crappy bow with a decent one first, and when the violin is back you can hunt for a better bow and keep the decent one as back up?

Sorry - interrupted. Meant also to say that my cellist DC has his favourite bow and another one half the price but decent enough, as back up. Because who would have thought that sometimes bows break, with or without human agent? (Gravity is to blame, apparently.)

Tagging O Hara would you mind telling me where you went to find your son’s violin? We are about to start looking for a forever violin once the A Levels are over

Elizabeth we went to Beechers in Oxford, ( www.beecheracoustics.com ) who were wonderful. They listened to DS play very carefully, and based their recommendations on his style and sound. Each violin was adjusted (soundposts and bridge) as he was playing, so we could hear its potential. At the end, we had quite a long discussion. I think we could have taken violins away on approval, but it was very obvious to all of us, which was the ‘winner’. We did not want to shop around because we are very pushed for time and it was a bit urgent as DS has had a big growth spurt! But for a full size, you probably will want to follow in Kutik’s footsteps and go round to a few luthiers.

Previously, we have used J.P. Guivier in London, who were also really good.

Thanks. Husband and I are both viola players but we bought our instruments years ago and the places we got them from are no longer in business so this thread has been really helpful. We want to get it right as it is the forever violin and 18th birthday present. No pressure.

Kutik, sorry if I missed this if you wrote about this further back, but how did the carbon bow get broken? I had imagined they were practically indestructible. I heard of a dealer demonstrating this by dropping one, point down, on to the floor of his shop.

Granny, actually it's not broken. Just the leather bit was come off so the metal wires are exposed making holding uncomfortable. We can have the leather replaced but was told it would cost at around £45. The carbon bow was less than £100 (but originally £120 or so) so thought it's not point repairing. We may replace the leather.

NeverEver, DS has quite a few performances in June which makes trying out new bows a bit awkward. We were going to start looking for a bow once all the important performances are done, but now we have to send the violin back to the maker. We can't pick a bow without the violin...

Elizabeth, have you been to JP Guivier? They have all kinds of violins new and old. Richard is brilliant.

You really need the violin first, then get the bow that works best with that instrument.

ColoursOfRain, I thought we may be able to get a bow, prob as a spare in future like NeverEver suggested, before sending the violin back to the maker. But do you mean we should wait till the re-varnish is finished?

As long as you match the bow to the instrument, it should be fine - but (considering the cost) it's another decision not to rush into. Even a spare needs to suit.

£45 seems very high just for replacing a bow leather, but maybe more work was needed. It is true that it is cheaper to buy a kid's bow than get the old one rehaired. A carbon bow has its uses, especially for out-of-doors events, known as muddy fields dates

Our search starts once A levels are over. We are looking for a violin to get to diploma standard even though DD won’t be studying music. My viola came from Milner and Hallows in North Yorkshire but they have retired so this thread is going to be really useful.

The crappy bow was at around £45 or so, so truly no worth having rehaired. The carbon bow is 3/4 so again I am not sure if it's worth repairing as we really needs a full size bow. But we may as well do it.

Elizabeth, so exciting you are hunting for a forever violin!

Morning all, were going violin shopping this week and will also be buying a new bow. Could I ask you all for some advice about the different types of bow eg Pernambuco, Brazilwood and Carbon fibre. Obviously Carbon fibre is the lightest but don't know about which is lighter out of the other two. Ds currently has a CF bow as he prefers light bows. He has co ordination issues as per his Aspergers. He predominantly plays in orchestra and either leads the seconds or in County Orchestra is in middle of firsts if that makes any difference. He does struggle to apply the correct pressure when playing which then affects the sound so not sure whether heavier bow is better??
I look forward to your suggestions 😊

That's an interesting question disorganised. I am also very much interested to hear opinions/advice. I'm afraid I don't know anything about bow yet.

The reason why we got cf bow for DS's 3/4 was because it's robust. He is a boy's boy so getting a delicate bow wasn't a wise move. He tried a few but liked the cf bow most also (he also liked it's black...). I didn't know it's lighter but he had just turned 9 at the time so perhaps he felt the lightness easier to handle.

Good luck with your shopping!!

I don't know about carbon fibre.

Brazilwood is generic and cheaper, usually poorer quality bows.

Pernambuco is the best, but has serious issues regarding sustainability. The options here are to buy older, or source carefully. Some bow makers used pernambuco salvaged from telegraph poles/ fences etc

In general old or new which one is better? For instance, there are pros and cons for old and new violins. Is bows the same?

Dd spent a happy hour trying bows and violins on Friday. She had a very clear preference of bow, and we have it and the violin she liked on Friday on approval. We were advised to spend 1/3 of the cost of the violin on the bow.

1/3rd of the value of the violin at least! But all depends on what stage of bowing you are at. A player who can play at least 1/2 the Mazas studies, some spiccato, martele, soon to be starting richochet will need a good bow but jumping from a £50 bow to a £1000 bow would be too big a jump, they just wouldn't know what to do with it & would be better with a £100 or so bow to get used to the better balance for a while before moving up. A good £100 bow should be relatively heavy & well balanced to teach how to draw a sound without effort before moving on to a better more professional bow. When I was looking 10-15 years ago, I would have had to spend £1000 on a wooden bow to match the abilities (spiccato, richochet etc) of the £400 carbon fibre bow I tried, so I ended up with the carbon fibre bow. That bow is now worth £900 so I am presuming I would need to spend £1500 on a pernambuco bow to match it at least! There are probably even better carbon fibre bows around than mine now, but mine is plenty good enough for life as a semi pro player/teacher & the Codobow top end models are very popular amongst my colleagues too. Carbon fibre trade off is that the sound is a little harsher than wood but that is a price I am willing to pay. If you're going straight in for £1000+ bows try lots before buying. My best guess is that most under 18's wouldn't know what to do with a bow that good though, so a £100 bow shopping should be relatively quick & painless- just go to a luthier & tell them you want a transitional bow- one that is relatively heavy & will teach the child how to draw the sound. They will all have a particular model to solve this & you probably won't even need to try it before you buy it!
Hope that helps x One other thing... wooden bows to get weaker with age. Brazilwood will generally only last a few years so a waste of money in my opinion, but even good pernambuco decrease in spring with age so if you go for wood make sure it's a really strong stick & try nothing without a good rosin like Melos!

The carbon bows I have seen are intended to be the same weight as the equivalent wooden bow. A light bow will require more effort to play sustained passages, so will not necessarily be less work overall. The challenge is to find a bow that does everything reasonably well. A decent carbon bow is likely to be perfectly adequate for many students.

DS said he couldn't tell the difference between a £800 bow, a £5000 bow and a £200 carbon fibre bow. We went for the £200 cf bow.

se22, I am so glad all is already sorted for your DD! It's really good that she knows what she wants. I think the journey for finding an ideal bow can be even more tedious than violin for many. We haven't started the search yet but DS had a chance to try out a few bows while we were looking for a violin and he found two bows 'alright' and didn't particularly like the rest.... Am I the only one who is feeling a omen for what will be happening with our bow search...?

cellointheboot, thanks for the amazing post. Seriously useful and helpful! The idea of getting a transitional bow certainly eases off some pressure. I am shocked to know wooden bows get weaker with age... So going back to my previous question, it would be better to buy a new bow than an old/antique bow then? How long 'a good bow' is supposed to last? Hope it has a good life if anyone end up spending 1/3 or more of the cost of the violin!!

Granny and NeverEver
If I am honest, I like to get another carbon bow, simply because it would reduce my worry about accidents. DS is not particularly careful although he wouldn't use it for sword fighting. But all the people around us tell me we should get a wooden bow for DS's benefit. Does it really make a difference for the learning point of views? I like the price of carbon bows too.

You are likely to be safe buying a wooden bow up to a hundred years old if it is in good condition. I expect a very strong player could wear out a delicate bow, by using too much pressure and ruining the springiness. There is not the same scope to repair bows as there is violins, where essentially every part is replaceable.