4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

Not sure if anyone is still reading this thread. But finally I can write what happened so am continuing my story nevertheless!

The shocking comments from Luthier 6 & Luthier 3, and the frantic phone calls to the dealer happened on Saturday. And as you all know I went to see Luthier 6's violins on Sunday. He let me have two violins for DS to try out. On Monday, I went to see Luthier 5 - I brought him the Irish violin and one of Luthier 6's violins.

He was the one who let DS try three violins made by the same maker at his shop. He knew why we were hesitating to buy the violin at the time and how we reached our decision to buy it eventually.

I told him I was considering to return the violin then opened the case to show him the violin. The first thing he mentioned was the varnish. He agreed the varnish seemed too fragile and too delicate, however otherwise he praised the violin.

I told him everything I was told by other luthiers.

• The panel is apparently too thin.
• The varnish is not good.
• It could be a production of the bad practice of modern violin makers making the panel deliberately very thin to attract buyers however the sound wouldn't last.
• No one would be interested in Irish violin so it would be a financial suicide.
• It shouldn't cost more than £xxxx, I paid too much.

Luthier 5 was quietly listening, and started explaining one by one.

• The panel looks fine, anyway I would be very surprised if the maker produced such a poor violin. He is a good maker.
• Yes, the varnish seems a bit of problem. But it's not uncommon for makers to experiment their ingredients and sometimes it wouldn't work.
• I agree with the bad practice of the modern makers but those makers are cowboys. This maker has been around and known. He wouldn't make such a violin.
• It is true Ireland is not well know for violin making, but it doesn't mean there is no good maker. In fact one of the great bow makers is Irish. You won't find a lot about this violin maker on the internet as he doesn't have a website and he works with his father. But he is well know and very experienced and his violins have been around and played. Whoever said this violin wouldn't cost more than £xxxx and that you would struggle to sell in future is wrong. Obviously he just doesn't know what he is talking about.

I was very confused... Who should I listen to???? Luthier 5 must have sensed my confusion so decided to take this matter to the next stage.

He brought an experienced luthier from his workshop and asked him to give the violin a proper health check and suggested I should watch the whole process as it would be educational and interesting.

Three of us sat down in a room upstairs. The luthier explained what healthy thickness would be, then by using a magnetic equipment, he started checking everywhere on the back, the side and the front, and each time he showed me the measurement and reassured me it's within the expected thickness. The luthier removed the strings, bridge, the little part near the chin rest (donno the name) to carry on the thorough examination.

It proved that the violin didn't have thin panels...

He also checked the neck angle and all that. Then happily announced there was nothing wrong with the violin and in fact it's a very well made, lovely violin.

I just popped in, hoping to hear some knowledgeable advice, but I didn't dream of receiving such extended help. Luthier 5 said he felt anger while he was listening to me. He couldn't believe there were still those people running such a bad business - bad mouthing someone else's violin by just giving a glance at it, then trying to sell their violin instead. All the while he and the fellow dealers/makers were working hard to protect the reputation in the violin business. He was also very much confident with the maker. He maintained he was a good maker from the beginning to the end.

For your reference, I must add that Luthier 5 didn't gain anything by doing this. I didn't buy a violin from him, and I didn't pay for the health check. He certainly gained my trust though.

Luthier 5 advised me to sort out the varnish sooner than later. No one really shouldn't touch the varnish without knowing the exact ingredients used for the violin, so it has to be done by the maker, then usually it should be fine.

So, I went back to the dealer. I apologised for my panicky phone calls, which was warmly accepted. They said it must have been very hard for someone like me who was not an expert to see what wrong and right. They reassured me the quality of the violin, and they would give me 100% pay-back for part exchange in future because they would love to have the violin back rather than me selling to someone else.

I also received an email from the maker himself explaining pros and cons of re-varnishing and that he was very confident to handle the process.

The dealer knew how much DS liked the maker's violin, so they said they would let DS have another violin of the same maker while DS's violin is in service for re-varnishing. We also agreed to wait till DS's exam is finished so no re-varnishing is happening just yet.

Gosh, I wrote a lot, but very slowly, as I've been packing for holiday at the same time. Also I have already had some wine (to cope with the stress of the packing!) so my writing would be terrible, sorry. There were more things happened but it's too late and anyway probably I told plenty so will stop talking about this issue for now. Good night!

well know = well known
No one really shouldn't = No one really should

I'm still reading Kutik I'm so pleased it's sorted . I guess you'll be using Luthier 5 from now on

So glad it is sorted and your ds has a violin he loves

So glad it is all sorted kutik! Have a good holiday - you deserve it!

We are off to look at 3/4 size violins for DS2 today, in the hope that we can get him sorted out over half term.

We will save the proper violin odyssey for the upgrade to 4/4, but your thread has been an inspiration

Kutik I was reading this with bated breath! So pleased you found luthier 5 and had such good advice. I think it gives you an idea about the tactics of some of the others. I'm sure the maker can sort out the varnish when the time comes. Enjoy your holiday!

Well done, you got there! And the maker revarnishing his own instrument will create no problem with authenticity.

I did grades 1-5 on a £50 violin that my dad got from a friend at work second hand. Having earned it, they bought me a £750 violin on which I went up to grade 8.

I honestly don't get spending thousands of pounds on violins for young children.

Tabatha it's tricky . In a lot of ways I agree with you ( and ds's trumpet teacher would too to a certain extent ) . I too was amazed when Ds came back from NCO last year and told me about all the amazing instruments that his fellow orchestra members played - I had no idea and thought he was doing well having a £700 ish trumpet aged 11 but the OPs Ds and many of the other dcs referred to on this thread play at a really high level . From my point of view if Ds didn't show such a commitment ( and potential) at his relatively young age there's no way he would have such an expensive instrument ( though his was second hand - but trumpets are a bit different to violins - that's a whole different thread) and I would imagine that it's the same for others . They are playing week in week out in an environment where most children play lovely ( and expensive) instruments. And if they are exceptional players - which many of them are - they do sound and play differently .

Tabatha - it is always a balancing act, deciding on benefit vs cost vs responsibility/insurance and so on. It is also worth noting that the little boy at the centre of this thread is exceptional (easily grade 8+ on two instruments at the age of 10, offered scholarships at conservatoire junior departments...)

For talented young musicians who can’t afford the instrument they need to reach their potential, there are options. I have heard wonderful things about this organisation, for example: benslowmusic-ils.org

Taggie I do wish there was more help for brass players though , although in brass bands they are often loaned instruments . Ds now has a lovely cornet too !!

Glad it's sorted kutik.

When I was hunting () for my piano and when DS was hunting for his violin, the "worst" thing was that you know it when the instrument is yours. Luckily both my piano and DS's violin didn't require a second mortgage...

Thanks everyone for reading my looooong poor English posts! There were a few more smallish dramas but I decided focusing on the happy side as otherwise it would be a novel.

Tabitha, I totally get what you mean as it was not so long ago that spending £750 on a violin for a child was out of our normal sense. Indeed £750 is quite a lot - there are lots DCs who happily work up to grade 8 on Stentor and it seems catering well for their needs. I understand that the cost wouldn't always reflect the sound quality as values for dealers and players are not the same. And it's also true that not all the professionals own very expensive instruments so having an expensive instrument may not be 'a must'. However, the quality of the wood, varnish and craftmanship can make a difference and often allow players to create more colours. We had a choice to lone a nice instrument also but fortunately we had fund and DS found one he loves so it made sense for us to go for the purchase. By the way we didn't pay as much as you may be thinking in the end. We've been incredibly lucky.

Taggie, thanks for the lovely words about DS but I must disagree with your comment on the 'easily g8+' bits! Piano is def not that level - it's been neglected greatly. He still plays regularly but mainly as crazy confused composers (he still loves doing this and makes us laugh)... Also, DS's jd didn't offer a scholarship! I am happy for people to believe the myth though!!

lone????
We had a choice to BE LOANED a nice instrument...

I must stop this kind of mistakes really!

Kutik - I don’t know much about grades to be honest, but I do know about violin and piano, and based on his playing, your DS most definitely is exceptional . I can’t wait for you to sort out your phone so that we can see/hear a snippet of mini-kutik’s wonderful new violin!

We have some news on the instrument front... DS2 now has a beautiful 3/4 size violin. It is Czech and made in the late 19th century. He tried about 5 violins blind (not knowing price/age/maker) and had an immediate affinity with this one, so we bought it then and there. I was sad to say goodbye to the lovely little 1/2 size but DS2 is just excited to move on. He has not wanted to put it down! Once he has sorted out his point of contact, I will post a clip on the channel.

Taggie, as you may guess I don't know much about grades neither, to be honest. After all it's his very first violin exam this term!

I am super excited by the news, Taggie. That's so sweet he doesn't want to put it down! It would be great to share some clips to see each other's violin but sadly I seem to have lost the access completely. I cannot access to the channel from any device for some reasons. Very weird but I just can't get in. Is DS's piano clips still on there? I don't even remember which one I posted now...

That's great news Taggie! :)

However, the quality of the wood, varnish and craftmanship can make a difference

I would suggest a child would have to have reached a very good standard before that was much of an issue. My £750 wasn't a Stentor by the way. It was a handmade German violin.

Tabitha, indeed, I totally agree with your point.

I'm not very sure exactly how much Stentor costs. I guess there are several grades and but anyway I heard they are quite reliable and good value for what you get so my point was something relatively reasonable like Stentor could work fine for those who went up to grade 8. I didn't meant to indicate yours was Stentor... I actually thought yours would be antique like old German or French. DS had an old French 3/4 and it was at around similar price range and was beautiful.

Tabitha you are right and that's why ds's trumpet teacher was wary of trying different trumpets . Apparently he went to try out better ones aged 13 and couldn't tell the difference so he didn't upgrade for a while. Ds's new trumpet is second hand so only cost a bit more than his intermediate one but he instantly said that it played and sounded differently and indeed it does . We have held off buying an expensive new custom built instrument for different reasons but I would imagine that Kutik's Ds is just the sort of extraordinary child who would be able to tell the difference .