Brexit MegaThread - part 14

[Peregrina]

Thread 13. We had a debate about whether there should be a new one but if no one answers this the whole series after 8 years plus will come to their end.

Brexit happened, although one time Leavers do not seem to appreciate this.
It's worth noting I think that Brexit was a Tory initiative and the Tory party has just received its worse electoral thrashing since 1832. Could it be entirely unrelated?

What next? A gradual rapprochement with the EU? A Norway style agreement?

This is the person the Brexshiteers put their faith in...

This just in.

@Peregrina

Again, read more carefully. Farage, on the televised leadership debates, stated that immigration, when measured in the 10's of thousands, was sustainable and useful. That occurred in the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Then, Labour, led by Tony Blair, took over in 1997. To fulfill his ambition to become president of the EU, Blair allowed immigration to soar from 48,000 to 256,000. A five fold increase.

As for the statement that they wanted nothing to do with the EU - trouble yourself to do any sort of google to see the stance which Gove and Rees-Mogg took re the EU.

The burden of proof is upon the claimant. That you are unable to quote is evidence that the statement:

We want nothing to do with the EU whatever.

Was never made.

@IItisymoi Since the EU have said repeatedly there will be NO cherrypicking, Norway or Switzerland style arrangements will not even be discussed for a LONG time by the EU

The explanation for that is simple. It would encourage other members to consider leaving the EU.

Both Norway and Switzerland have said they will never fully join the EU. They are more wealthy per capita than both Germany and France. Lower unemployment too.

Iceland considered joining the EU, but pulled out. The president at the time made the statement:

“We are a country that has experienced that our interests and our values have been compromised by some external forces that we felt were beyond our control. And so we are very aware that in joining international organizations, we lose a degree of independence that we have cherished for much of our history.”

Link is:

Iceland and the EU: Understanding the Reasons Behind their Non-Membership - Travel To North

The conclusion was:

Joining the EU could mean a loss of political independence for Iceland. Many Icelanders see the EU as an establishment that is far removed from their reality, and they fear that EU membership could lead to a loss of national identity.

Have; Iceland, Norway and Switzerland not proved that the EU is a failed model? All three are in the World's top 10 of GDP/capita. Germany is 18th, France is 23rd

What do those countries have that the UK doesn't have 🤔

Much of the recent migration to the UK is from
Ukraine - Thanks Putin - mostly women and children - over 200,000
Hong Kong - Thanks Xi - mostly young couples and families - over 144,000

nothing at all to do with the EU

www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9v831dyme8o

It is clear now that the Tories will lurch to the Right in a bid to woo voters who supported Reform in the last GE.

It doesn't actually matter who wins the leadership contest. Nigel Farage is the tail wagging the dog here.

It is also very clear that the influence of American-inspired (and likely funded) think tanks (such as the Adam Smith Institute, whose financing is very opaque) is the foundation of much of current Tory 'thought' on the role of the state.

It is also very clear that the influence of American-inspired (and likely funded) think tanks (such as the Adam Smith Institute, whose financing is very opaque) is the foundation of much of current Tory 'thought' on the role of the state.

With what looks to be similar results

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/sep/02/voters-beginning-to-think-conservatives-are-weird-research-suggests

Corbyn has managed to put together a Pro Hamas grouping of 5 MPs - so they get funding like Reform

I don't like Corbyn, but I do like the way he is managing if not to beat Farage at his own game but at least equal him.

I also think that as an MP Corbyn is much better than Farage will ever be.

Corbyn at least knows where is constituency is and has an office there

Attempting to 'discuss'with Globe is as edifying as discussing the different RAL colour codes of her lawn. Note the President of Iceland was of that opinion AT THAT TIME.
More interesting is the discussion on France Bleu this morning on regilnal patois.

A hallmark of low quality "thinking" is that is can only imagine a single entity changing in a system.

So with our brain dead Brexiteers, there was this incorrect assumption that if the only thing that changed was the UK being in the EU, then everything else would remain exactly the same as we moved into the future.

Of course, in reality, changing any part of a complex chaotic system will affect all parts - usually with unpredictable results.

I think this is coupled with the powerful sense people seem to have that "it's all about me" which can be variously exploited where necessary.

Who remembers when mobile phones started becoming available, and some people were convinced they would "never take off" because in their little world they couldn't find a use ? The current approach to driverless cars is reminiscent of that.

Everything is always in flux.
The detailed interlinks in the UK's trading system going back thousands of years were always going to make any sort of 'disengagement' a shambles.

It is sad that politicians are still so unwilling to quietly compromise for the benefit of electors.

Stewart Lees forensic takedown of "Paul Nuttalls of the UKIPs" isn't really satire, just true.

However, it's interesting that even in antiquity, there were people who were full of bollocks with their own agenda.

I mean the Roman hype was that Julies Caesar braved the ends of the earth to invade Britannia. I suspect the reality was closer to a day trip across the channel to an island that had been trading into Europe since at least the Beaker folk. Still, if it impresses the plebs ....

St Augustine "bought" Christianity to Britain. Did he bogroll. The catholic church had to work very hard to erase the fact that not only were there Christians in Britain, they went back a damn sight further than the Johnny Come Lately Roman types. Hence their weird views on women. Which of course had to be eradicated.

I have no doubt that somewhere on a Reform think tank policy document (don't ask what those stains are. Simply know they will glow under blacklight) the elimination of archaeology will feature. Because it seems every time we bother to look we find more evidence that Britain has never been "an island" in the send the Reform self-pleasurers imagine.

Now, back to that dodecahedron ....

As the caption this came with, just see the last question.

Because it seems every time we bother to look we find more evidence that Britain has never been "an island" in the send the Reform self-pleasurers imagine.

If we go back far enough c.11000 years then Britain wasn't an island at all. But the end of the ice age caused the sea to flood and sever the land bridge.

The Vikings had trade links to Iran after all
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y8wj8g5yjo

Where you look it's painfully clear that the civilisations that survived and mattered, traded everywhere.

Presumably the ones we don't know about, didn't.

The level of xenophobia from Brexiteers, in a country whose state religion derived from a middle eastern mystery cult reinforced by successive waves of large scale, generally peaceful immigration, sealed with a Norman conquest that cemented a Royal bloodline that had to borrow from Germany is - frankly - embarrassing.

There isn't any part of "Britain" you can't point at and fit into a truly world view.

"Coming over here ...."

Talkinpeace · Yesterday 17:00
"Corbyn has managed to put together a Pro Hamas grouping of 5 MPs - so they get funding like Reform"

Sounds like something Badenoch would say. Corbyn is opposed to the Israeli Government committing a genocide in Gaza rather than being "pro Hamas".

Harriet,
Corbyn has been pro PLO for decades - LONG before the October 7th massacre.
Hamas shot hostages in the head when they were minutes from rescue.
Hamas do not want peace.
The IDF do not want peace either and Netanyahu is unspeakable.

BUT
Our politicians should not be making a conflict in another country over which we have no control their primary focus.

Getting back to Brexit, it is interesting to see Starmer being reported as trying to 'soft soap' some EU countries' leaders (Macron and Stolz particularly) and being given a flea in his ear meaning that the REVIEW of the TCA agreement will go ahead (for which MORE PAIN is coming the UK's way) but NO changes to make things easier for the UK, Thus Globe and other leave voters can be suitably encouraged that their precious Brexit is not going to be undermined. Further loss of Euro clearing by banks and no real improvements to trade goods mobility will continue to strangle UK business so UK indistry will simply wither as it NEEDS better availability of raw materials AND better terms for trade of the finished goods. The Tories really have salted the earth with their Brexit.

Barnier is the new French PM

I always like it when old PMs speak without being shackled by their party comms plans
https://x.com/maxtempers/status/1831269881041322297

(Video of Blair critiquing migration from EU vs post Brexit migration)

Barnier is an interesting choice .

He’s a good but firm negotiator with clear objectives (as the UK found to its cost ) so he should hopefully be able to get the coalition to work well.

Barnier will probably do a good job