To ask what has improved since leaving the EU?

[Butterflyfluff]

I’ve just had to pay customs charges on something I ordered from Germany - whilst we were in the EU there were no such charges.

Which got me thinking.

Leaving hasn’t been the disaster some predicted but, I can’t think of anything that affects me that’s actually improved since leaving.

What have other people’s upsides been? (And just being able to say we’re not in the EU anymore doesn’t count! 😂)

Not to change outcome of where we are

Russia would still want Ukraine

It’s a massive overstretch to think a remain vote would stop that ambition.

Well that is exactly what I said!

"It’s not that Brexit/no Brexit changes Putin’s “wants” - it’s that dividing Europe makes it easier for those wants to be achieved."

I notice you haven't answered the question though. Why did they pay for Brexit, do you think?

Well neither have you

Where would we be today if remain had won?

There may be other advantages to it but any claim that Brexit has led us to this situation no I think it’s a bit naval gazing and U.K. centric

@MarshaBradyo

Well neither have you

Where would we be today if remain had won?

There may be other advantages to it but any claim that Brexit has led us to this situation no I think it’s a bit naval gazing and U.K. centric

To answer your question.

The EU would be more powerful and a more united and powerful EU makes it harder for Russia to divide and rule.

i don't think anyone has said we wouldn't be where we are now but Putin wants the break up of the EU, as do plenty of others, it helps him achieve his aims.

So far our brexit loving Govt is doing what it does best and talks about what it will do... very little firm action.

So over to you?

I don't think anyone has said we wouldn't be where we are now

Ok good we agree then.

On action we’ll unite with NATO to a large extent, which is what I’d want. We are not powerful enough alone and having a huge defence budget is harder to maintain than joining forces - unless you’d want that? Would you like it increased and by how much

Plus the list of countries who’ve provided weapons ( U.S., U.K., Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltic states) doesn’t seem that long, so we have done that. I’m sure there’s more to come as part of a united front.

I didn’t even vote for Brexit but I’m not on board with this statement, which started the debate

‘Brexitiers have weakened the UK, split europe and in turn have made war more likely.’

I’d say the situation in Ukraine would still be happening if Brexit had lost. So the likelihood of war isn’t down to Brexit voters. Which actually you agree with in your last post.

No Marsha, selective quoting :( makes it harder to have a reasoned debate when people do that.
As i ve repeated many times (and in the sentence previous to the one you picked out) Brexit weakens and divides Europe, it limits our response to what Putin has done, so whilst we may well still have been facing a belligerent Putin, its what happens next that matters.

So far, the UK, US and EU are all doing their own thing on sanctions, with the US and EU acting more strongly.

Which kinda proves my point.

The other big difference is that Johnson would not be PM if leave had lost. He came to power on his "get Brexit done" ticket.
So we'd be presenting a united and more powerful front. And would not be led by a lame duck/corrupt PM who is under police investigation.

It was that post I objected to

The idea that Brexiters are responsible for increasing the likelihood of war. That is a big claim and divisive.

And now I think about the people who voted for Brexit, often without any power or say even in their own country, it makes me feel a bit depressed.

what part of this do you think is untrue?

Brexitiers have weakened the UK, split europe and in turn have made war more likely

or put it another way, do you think Putin would have UK to have stayed in the EU

If remain had won...

Perhaps we wouldn't have been scraping the barrel to appoint a foreign secretary, and we wouldn't have one coming out with "sending supplies to our Baltic allies across the Black Sea." I can imagine Cameron working more closely with Scholz and Macron to present a more united front. I don't imagine Cameron would have "had" to postpone a call with Putin to defend his own illegal parties. Of course it might not still have been Cameron as PM, but probably someone a little more statesmanlike than Boris.

Cameron was primarily concerned with keeping control over his own party - he's the reason we're here. I don't think he's have been better than Boris, just a different kind of self serving arsehole!

@Alexandra2001

Not being in Europol doesn't help in tracing Russian ill gotten gains either

Sadly, Europol (www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/10/a-data-black-hole-europol-ordered-to-delete-vast-store-of-personal-data) is holding a quadrillion bytes of personal data, a significant amount of which breaches its own rules and which it has been ordered to delete.

I don't believe that this information was in the public domain at the time of the referendum, but some Remain voters may prefer to keep details of their lawful financial, medical, and legal affairs confidential.

Johnson would have still been PM if Leave had lost. He always had his eye on that role

May was remain and became PM. Then Johnson got the job he wanted

If the result was the other way around the same areas would have backed that party that promised to weaken links with the EU and that would have been the Tories

It’s a massive shake up in our politics. Labour should have engaged more with all their voters but didn’t though Corbyn did more so that previous leaders he also pushed away the more centre voters

I don’t just blame Cameron for the referendum why did so many mp’s back having a referendum when it became quite clear that vast majority had little understanding of how the EU operates (I don’t expect them to but I do if they supported having a referendum it’s absolutely disgraceful and all should be held accountable).

Nothing, huge waste of time and money. We are getting smaller by the day. I dont see loads of people stepping up to fill the stolen jobs and I'm still no seeing the Boris bus statement coming to fruition.

@OhWhyNot

Johnson would have still been PM if Leave had lost. He always had his eye on that role

May was remain and became PM. Then Johnson got the job he wanted

If the result was the other way around the same areas would have backed that party that promised to weaken links with the EU and that would have been the Tories

It’s a massive shake up in our politics. Labour should have engaged more with all their voters but didn’t though Corbyn did more so that previous leaders he also pushed away the more centre voters

I don’t just blame Cameron for the referendum why did so many mp’s back having a referendum when it became quite clear that vast majority had little understanding of how the EU operates (I don’t expect them to but I do if they supported having a referendum it’s absolutely disgraceful and all should be held accountable).

I think this too re everyone who backed the referendum in the first place. Then Cameron just legging it the next day

I do wonder where we’d be if David not Ed M had been chosen to run but a) it’s a long time ago and b) such a possible divergence in outcome makes my head thirst a bit

Hurt not thirst..

The bus slogan was very typical Johnson. Throw a statement one out and move on. He had always done it and still does.

But Remain fell for this different figures were being stated. This is exactly why there should never have been a referendum it’s too complex to claim an exact figure.

MP’s when they voted to support Cameron to hold a referendum (on both sides) they supported this chaos and they should all be held accountable

There’s a really good programme on it which shows how the lines were thought up - and why DC went for what he did. And it really worked. Emotively they got it right.

(And I can’t believe one of my favourite actors played him he must dine out on that for years)

@blameless You didn't even read your own link... lazy.

Among the quadrillions of bytes held are sensitive data on at least a quarter of a million current or former terror and serious crime suspects and a multitude of other people with whom they came into contact

If that stops a terrorist attack i'm good with it and of course, its the EU's own watch dog that found the issue.... unlike the UK which now has no such oversight.. well done!

Johnson would have still been PM if Leave had lost. He always had his eye on that role

May was remain and became PM. Then Johnson got the job he wanted hmm

Err the big flaw in your reasoning is Cameron wouldn't have resigned had Remain won, he would have been flush with the spoils of victory & in a powerful position to see off the ERG.... so May wouldn't have become PM, there would have been no extra GE's in '17 and '19, with the next GE in 2020, possibly postponed due to the pandemic.

So a real advantage of a remain win would have been govt actually governing for 4 years, instead of the disastrous brexit vacuum we've had, in which the Govt completely forgot about Russia.

Agree Alexandra

Plus of course there wouldn’t have been the purge of relatively sane tories like Grieve

@Alexandra2001

Yes I did. Is it acceptable for a surgeon working on a public figure to maintain confidentiality? If I am the victim of a miscarriage of justice, should the solicitors and barristers representing me be able to communicate privately? Should the work of investigative journalists be available to governments as a matter of course?

Many of the people using EncroChat were doing so for Dark Web purposes, some were using it entirely legally to protect themselves or others, all were swept up and all communications have been collected for future use.

Cameron wouldn’t have resigned I agree

Not sure about postponing election in 2020, maybe but it would have had to have happened at some point - so maybe not postponed for that long

Hard to know what the outcome would have been of course - whether a similar landslide or something else

I do wonder where we’d be if David not Ed M had been chosen to run but a) it’s a long time ago and b) such a possible divergence in outcome makes my head thirst a bit

@MarshaBradyo I have often wondered the same thing. I saw Ed M on the Eurostar shortly after the referendum and I must say, I did apportion a bit of blame in my mind.