To ask what has improved since leaving the EU?

[Butterflyfluff]

I’ve just had to pay customs charges on something I ordered from Germany - whilst we were in the EU there were no such charges.

Which got me thinking.

Leaving hasn’t been the disaster some predicted but, I can’t think of anything that affects me that’s actually improved since leaving.

What have other people’s upsides been? (And just being able to say we’re not in the EU anymore doesn’t count! 😂)

What do you think the U.K. should be doing? Right now wrt Ukraine?

Nothing, it can't and as Ukraine isn't in NATO, art 5 doesn't apply.

all we can do is ask the US to put back more troops into eastern europe.

On sanctions, again all talk, BJ said "one steel toe capped Russian boot enters Ukraine and the sanctions trap will snap down"

Lord give me strength! he is a fuckin idiot.

@Aderyn21

I do think there's an argument for saying that leave (or any huge constitutional change) should only have been adhered to if a significant majority actively voted for it. Or if people weren't allowed to opt out of expressing an opinion.

If nothing else it would stop all this divisiveness, which is doing the country no good.

I prefer the former. There was a view that something this complex shouldn’t have led to a referendum which I also have sympathy with.

I’d rather look at the process than wrongly state it’s outcome is undemocratic. Otherwise you end up with ‘stolen election’ territory based on feelings alone.

@Alexandra2001

What do you think the U.K. should be doing? Right now wrt Ukraine?

Nothing, it can't and as Ukraine isn't in NATO, art 5 doesn't apply.

all we can do is ask the US to put back more troops into eastern europe.

On sanctions, again all talk, BJ said "one steel toe capped Russian boot enters Ukraine and the sanctions trap will snap down"

Lord give me strength! he is a fuckin idiot.

And are you concerned re escalation if NATO get involved?

Or are you more sanguine as they are ‘extremely weak’

I think we must be listening to different media as much concern being expressed if it does happen

@Aderyn21

Alexandra the flip side is that not enough people felt strongly enough about remaining in the EU to actively go out and vote to stay in!

Honestly? i think many people in this country have zero interest in politics, they have hard lives and struggle, who is in Govt or EU membership is an irrelevance. FPTP makes for depressing voting.

Ever seen a news journalist interview people on the high street and ask them to ID leading politicians and most cannot?

I’d rather look at the process than wrongly state it’s outcome is undemocratic. Otherwise you end up with ‘stolen election’ territory based on feelings alone.
Leave campaign found by electoral commission to be unlawful. No legal avenue for challenge because ref was advisory only. Lies on the side of a bus. Russian money.

Yeah, feelings alone. Sure.

We wouldn't have Boris, but we would have had Cameron. Remember that he's the muppet who called a referendum purely to keep control of his own party, without giving any consideration as to what would happen if the vote went against him - in fact he completely took electorate compliance for granted and had no plan.
People blame Farage but he wasn't operating in a vacuum. And actually I think we should have been discussing whether EU membership was good for the UK, and that should have been a longer conversation, not a snap referendum so that Cameron could prove a point.

@CryingAtTheDiscotheque

I’d rather look at the process than wrongly state it’s outcome is undemocratic. Otherwise you end up with ‘stolen election’ territory based on feelings alone. Leave campaign found by electoral commission to be unlawful. No legal avenue for challenge because ref was advisory only. Lies on the side of a bus. Russian money.

Yeah, feelings alone. Sure.

Your issue there is ‘no legal avenue’ and advisory

Get the process right as a priority.

Would you be calling it undemocratic if Remain won?

@MarshaBradyo

Or are you more sanguine as they are ‘extremely weak’

I think we must be listening to different media as much concern being expressed if it does happen

why do you think NATO will get involved in a non NATO country?

Look at the numbers? european nato countries are very weak militarily, as i said, UK has 23k infantry and due to cuts, postponed building a new battle tank.. apparently no future wars would need them.

We ignored Russian rearmament.

all a bit off topic other than Brexit was on the Russian wish list.

Actually I’m willing to bet if Remain had won very few people would be calling it undemocratic - even with the same process - because people expected it would.

Remainers did, I kind of did as I voted that way, and if it had won we would have felt it was right.

Would you be calling it undemocratic if Remain won?

Was there foreign/russian influence on the remain campaign? if so, then yes, undemocratic.

What does it matter what I'd be "calling it" Marsha ? If remain had won, the flaws in the process (by which I mean the rule breaking by Leave) would have been identical. So what? I am not sure why you keep referring to this as a counterfactual. It really doesn't prove anything about the democratic legitimacy of the referendum!

why do you think NATO will get involved in a non NATO country?

They won’t yet, but I believe they can in some circumstances- I was listening this morning but missed part of it. If Russian troops enter a NATO country they will.

Out of interest do you want them to be involved now?

Beyond sanctions and weapons that is but going in

I didn't expect Remain to win, who would?
Remain never had more than 3 or 4 % pts ahead (sometimes less) & within the margin of error and judging by the numbers of Leave posters and in my own social circles, Leave was very strong.

@CryingAtTheDiscotheque

What does it matter what I'd be "calling it" Marsha ? If remain had won, the flaws in the process (by which I mean the rule breaking by Leave) would have been identical. So what? I am not sure why you keep referring to this as a counterfactual. It really doesn't prove anything about the democratic legitimacy of the referendum!

Because a process is democratic or not, it shouldn’t depend on the outcome. It’s a bit Trumpian to get irate enough if you lose to then call it undemocratic.

Fine if you think it shouldn’t be done a certain way.

Some of the process should have been better - I agree with that part. But yes I do think it matters what people call it as a word it has a weight in our society with a definition that has to be met.

If it wasn’t legitimate then that is something that would have repercussions.

They won’t yet, but I believe they can in some circumstances- I was listening this morning but missed part of it. If Russian troops enter a NATO country they will

Out of interest do you want them to be involved now?

Beyond sanctions and weapons that is but going in

imho Ukraine is lost to Russia and there is nothing we can do about it.

Remember, Russia went in Georgia, Crimea, historically eastern european countries after WW2.

what we should be doing is pouring troops into Eastern Europe, inc the Baltic states BUT we can't because we haven't got them..... unless the yanks do it for us but i don't believe they will.

If it wasn’t legitimate then that is something that would have repercussions

Like what? if a commons/Mi6 report came up that Russian support swung it for Leave and that Farage and BJ are deep cover Russian agents... what exactly would happen?

UK rejoin the EU? no, it would be "lessons will be learnt, nothing like this can happen again" says uk's new PM Rishi Sunak.

what we should be doing is pouring troops into Eastern Europe, inc the Baltic states

I’d be interested in hearing what the general view is on this from people talking about the situation (experts etc) - would it further escalate and provoke Putin

We seem to be going for sanctions and weapons provision atm

Would you be calling it undemocratic if Remain won?

The Brexiters would still not have shut up though. Even now, Ian Duncan Smith is whinging in the Daily Mail about the Brexit his party negotiated and how it's not fair, EU dictating terms etc. etc. Instead of shutting up and getting on with it. Maybe they should have tried getting some better negotiators. The problem here is that the better negotiators would find a compromise and this would cause the ultra brexiters yet another tantrum.

My youngest son now has dual British and German citizenship because we have permanent residency. We didn't need permanent residency status before brexit so not sure whether it was something new to that or not.

Other than that nothing is better.

@MarshaBradyo

what we should be doing is pouring troops into Eastern Europe, inc the Baltic states

I’d be interested in hearing what the general view is on this from people talking about the situation (experts etc) - would it further escalate and provoke Putin

We seem to be going for sanctions and weapons provision atm

Well, its a moot point because the european countries do not have the military strength to do so.

Chairs of the commons defence and intelligence committees wanted NATO troops in Ukraine months ago.

Arming resistance movements hasn't a good track record.

stable door and all that but tough sanctions on Putin after 2014 may have helped but the UK did the opposite.

But yes I do think it matters what people call it as a word it has a weight in our society with a definition that has to be met.

If it wasn’t legitimate then that is something that would have repercussions.

Well we agree on something at least Marsha, though it is pretty unclear what "definition" of democratic you are applying.

Chairs of the commons defence and intelligence committees wanted NATO troops in Ukraine months ago.

And where would we be now if troops were there?

I want de escalation no doubt about it. Others want a display of strength as opposed to what they see as weak.

Escalation is very concerning imo. And others too, listening to general expert views.

what we should be doing is pouring troops into Eastern Europe, inc the Baltic states

We don't have troups to pour in. Best we could manage would be a trickle and then who'd be propping up the ambulance service, the haulage industry, the flood defences and all the other services which can no longer function due to tory cuts.

The UK currently has only 82,000 in the army. Compared to 624,520 teachers and 1.4 million NHS workers.

*troops obviously.