Westministenders: Where's my milk and cheese?

[RedToothBrush]

The 'smooth' exit from transition now leads to a million and one little things that you can't get hold of or took completely for granted.

Why is sainsbury in NI selling spa milk? Why can't you get hold of your favourite food stuff?

Its a slow strangulation of the country.

In which you get to learn all about the merits of the EU and what a donkey Johnson really is.

Telling Leave voters they re racist (even if that's what I think) is not going to get them back.

I definitely think it will come back to haunt Starmer. The Tories will make damn sure that it does. I wish he'd gone for a free vote which probably would have led to a a good few abstentions, some for, especially for MPs in Leave seats and a good few noes. It would have made it crystal clear that this was a Tory project.

We're already seeing a push towards making Hunt an acceptable leadership candidate in the media, now that Brexit is 'done' dont be surprised that the shitness of the deal will be blamed on the newly resigned/retired/off to write a memoir Johnson and the Labour support of the deal.

The lack of forwarding thinking as far as wanting to make inroads into Scotland for Labour again (lost by the centrists) as we all know on these threads Scotland is going to get fucked by this deal and any blame can be planted at both the feet of Labour and the Tories

I have a good (ish) shadow cabinet Labour MP. I spoiled my paper because I couldn't bring myself to vote for a party led by Corbyn. Sorry to tell you but the vote of one gits like me with long memories carries as much weight as the vote of a Corbynite.
That idiot is gone. I'd vote Labour in a heartbeat.

I might disagree with bellini on other matters, but totally with her on that. Abstention would have made me think that Labour was willing to bring No Deal on our heads. We are arguing about two different things.

I really do not understand why Blair is sold as good for the economy - it is exactly the same argument that Tories are good for the economy. What he gave to me and people like me was a lifetime of working to buy assets for the well-connected rich, and assets for drug addicts.

How about we stop worrying about 'Blairite' v 'Corbynite' and actually do some Labouriting? What is needed in Britain is communication and education of the benefits of socialism, not more neoliberalism.

totally with her on the effects of abstention on Brexit, I mean. Obviously not on economics.

Scotland is lost to the UK. NI will go back where it belongs with Ireland.
England and Wales voted for Brexit. Those people need to be won back to sanity. Despite what I believe in my heart, calling them idiot racists won't work.

I have a tiny hope that the Biden presidency will help to shift things just a little. I am not incidentally expecting great things from Biden - most politicians disappoint, but the current Tories were So Up Trumps Arse, that it's worth not letting them forget it.

England and Wales voted for Brexit.

Anyone know if there is a study on numbers of English living in leave voting Welsh counties?

I don't want them back!
Labour needs to take a stand.
Racist?
Take your vote elsewhere.

The Brexit vote in Wales was thought to be won by English incomers. I don't know how true that is. There is now a growing Independence movement in Wales. There is still a long way to go on that score, but 50 years ago those fighting for Scottish Independence looked as though they were fighting for a hopeless cause, and it doesn't look that way now.

I called hunt as next pm months ago.
Its so obvious.
And pretty scary.

But what were they successful at doing?
What I saw as the
Handing over control to the bank of england - taking it out of politics

Investment in Education and Health recovering from more than a decade of underinvestment and providing a buffer for subsequent
underinvestment by the subsequent tory governments

National minimum wage, Focus on school building, early years,sure start, dramatic reductions in child/pensioner poverty - basically investments in the future

Yes inequality didn't improve much (apart from side effects of the above) but that meant halting a steady increase in inequality which resumed post the 2008 crash.

Even the Iraq war meant that no government could take the UK into a war without following Blair's precedent of a parliamentary vote when 412 MP's voted for war. That precedent stopped Cameron taking us into syria.

There was a load of fuss about that JustAnotherPoster. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research claimed that English voters pushed towards Brexit. Then there was an even more in-depth report that claimed the opposite again.

The point to remember should be that people who voted for Brexit were not a single group. As has been said many times, they did not know what they were voting for and most never wanted a no-deal scenario. What we have got is very close to that. "Racism" is a very easy insult to throw around nowadays, and involves much more complex socioeconomic implications than initially appears. Most obviously I can and have been called racist for supporting women's rights over common Indian and muslim attitudes that women are second-class inferior beings, which they enshrine in law.

Investment in Education and Health recovering from more than a decade of underinvestment and providing a buffer for subsequent
underinvestment by the subsequent tory governments

Hows PFI working out for you?

@Peregrina , agree.
In an ideal world (ha ha) a Biden presidency would reset the vibe. It won't because there is still so much fear amongst Trumpists of what lurks behind him.
But anything that points us away from nationalism and populism has got to help break the spell.

But anything that points us away from nationalism and populism has got to help break the spell

Your beloved centrism is what pushed Scotland into nationalism

@Shrillharridan

I called hunt as next pm months ago. Its so obvious. And pretty scary.

I think the reason Baker backed off is that Boris is needed to take the fallout of the deal he did. Because if you read between the lines - or indeed read the serious analysis (and Barniers comments are an interesting counterpoint to the "teething problems" narrative) then the current deepening chaos isn't going away. It is the new normal.

When that finally sinks in, the deal Boris did will have to be undone. (Which was also nicely addressed by Barnier).

Imagine being a Remainer trying to "pull together" by building your job-providing, revenue-raising new electric car factory in the UK, only to discover that a cunt called Ratcliffe who agitated for Brexit is busy undercutting you in the EU with his German factory.

Incidentally, something that I hadn't considered before, but which the bike parts balls up has highlighted. Even if there was the will and backing in the UK to make the parts here (there isn't) it still couldn't be done as the parts are patented . Which is yet another barrier to "doing it ourselves".

I know you don't want them back Shrillharridan . But people are messy. They are never as pure as you'd like in thought and word. I'm sorry to break this to you but expecting purity of thought (even demanding it) gets you nowhere.
I know plenty of Brexit voters who are vocally anti racist and genuinely don't see the nasty shit they sided with.
I am firmly in the "lie down with dogs; get up with fleas " school of thought about Leave voters but my long life has shown me that "deBrexiting" these people from the cult is more productive than casting them aside.

JustAnotherPoster00 , my beloved centrism remains unchanged. Scotland dumped Labour long before Brexit. Once it goes independent it can sort the SNP out through the ballot box.
I'm hoping that before they go we get electoral reform at Westminster first. To avoid a permanent Tory majority here in England.

Anyone who can cheerfully, nay gleefully, vote alongside farage et al can go fuck themselves.
What has 4.5 years of remainers being the adults in the room panned out?
So. Fuck em.
I will not vote for a party that courts racists, neo nazis and xenophobes.
You do you.

And, as a Remain supporter, I couldn't vote for a party that cosied up to antisemitism and made Jewish people, like my family, actually fear living in the Uk.
That's where we are.

I am also highly suspicious of any statistics that claim inequality did not increase over New Labour's time. There are many ways of constructing statistics and narratives over inequality, just as much as over Brexit. The single biggest cause of wealth in Britain is housing and land: we all know about the generational divide in that, which began when house prices shot up at the same time as private buy-to-lets became really popular and finance was substantially deregulated, both of which happened on New Labour's watch.

And yes, my heart also says "Fuck 'em" but my head says we need an Opposition that can get elected

And yes, my heart also says "Fuck 'em" but my head says we need an Opposition that can get elected

This one wont be