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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 21:00

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/4113818-Westministenders-Festive-Edition?watched=1
New Thread

OP posts:
Peregrina · 22/12/2020 21:14

Gibraltar is finalizing associate membership of Schengen, according to El País. UK citizens will need to show passports to enter, Spaniards won't.

Yes, I saw that, but it's rather been slipped under the radar, hasn't it? So British passport holders can't enter a British Overseas Territory (Or whatever its status is) but Spanish EU citizens can. From the Gibraltarians view - 96% voted to Remain, so there can't be any Clavinova type nonsense that it was only just a vote to Remain.

Other news - Scottish MSPs have voted to keep their laws (those which are within their remit) aligned with EU rules. The Tories don't like it - they want a race to the bottom, so really don't like the idea of part of the UK having higher standards.

What will the ERG say?

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2020 21:16

titchy
THe thing to remember about long haul drivers is that they are self selected to be anti social buggers
who only drink in their own groups when they know they are parked up for a while

I'll bet that the actual incidence among them will be VERY low

BUT
the case load at the motorway services and petrol stations and cafes in Kent
puts them at risk
and thus why Macron had to act after Hancock and Johnson threw a wobbler

I'd like to think that this would knock sense into the politicians
but I am not optimistic

Chersfrozenface · 22/12/2020 21:19

@cherin

(Conjures images of convoy of trucks slowly driving through the Strand to take over the savoy)
Like the occupation of the Savoy's bomb shelter in September 1940. Only the entire hotel this time.
titchy · 22/12/2020 21:22

Oh I'm sure the incidence is low. But so many now using the same facilities, inevitably the few that have it will spread it. Then what? Keep them at Marston for two weeks. Using the same facilities...?

SwedishEdith · 22/12/2020 21:36

THe thing to remember about long haul drivers is that they are self selected to be anti social buggers
who only drink in their own groups when they know they are parked up for a while

True. They have their own lounge and restaurant on the ferries as well.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 22:16

Isn't that because they are all oily and the nice holiday makers don't want to mix with them?

SwedishEdith · 22/12/2020 22:20

I'm sure it is as well. If you could avoid other holiday makers, you would though. Is their canteen discounted? I know you can't go into it.

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2020 22:29

The food in their canteen is AMAZING
much bigger portions and filling meals
hence why they keep the normal punters out

SwedishEdith · 22/12/2020 23:04

I have to say, the best beef bourguignon I've ever had was on a Brittany Ferry (not on the Dover routes, obviously).

HateIsNotGood · 22/12/2020 23:25

Completely agree with above comments about the Ferry Facilities for Freight Drivers - and so it should be, a 'timetabled' break in their journey.

You'll find the same kind of Food and Facilities on the Peage.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 23:32

Yes, I also had a very good beef bourguignon on a Brittany Ferry. I think it was the Portsmouth to Caen route.

tobee · 23/12/2020 03:40

@SwedishEdith

*THe thing to remember about long haul drivers is that they are self selected to be anti social buggers who only drink in their own groups when they know they are parked up for a while*

True. They have their own lounge and restaurant on the ferries as well.

Although there will be people serving them surely?

PrincessNutNuts · 23/12/2020 08:07

Aren't they worried that the lorry parks will become hotbeds for things like dogging and prostitution? (Not solitary pursuits.)

ListeningQuietly · 23/12/2020 13:52

@PrincessNutNuts

Aren't they worried that the lorry parks will become hotbeds for things like dogging and prostitution? (Not solitary pursuits.)
Nah, that is the closed layby on the A31 where they have now put the lorry park for Portsmouth

www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/12957392.hampshire-county-council-has-blocked-cars-from-parking-in-a-300-yard-lay-by-on-the-a31-near-alresford/

PrincessNutNuts · 23/12/2020 19:15

Eek @ListeningQuietly Shock

ListeningQuietly · 23/12/2020 19:28

Tee hee
Its blocked off with HUGE concrete blocks
and the local press always call it the "the dogging site" as then any car found there "by accident" has some explaining to do Wink

Folks used to come down from London and Birmingham to it apparently
[blech]

PrincessNutNuts · 23/12/2020 19:31

@ListeningQuietly

Tee hee Its blocked off with HUGE concrete blocks and the local press always call it the "the dogging site" as then any car found there "by accident" has some explaining to do Wink

Folks used to come down from London and Birmingham to it apparently
[blech]

Oh dear LORD!

A proper "local attraction" Shock

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