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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2020 21:31

[quote istherelifeafter40]@HannibelHayes Thanks for posting this. Terrible news about NHS data and Palantir.[/quote]
Unfortunately, this isn’t new - Palantir has had its sticky mitts all over NHS data for much of this year already. Government had to be forced to reveal details in June.

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/palantir-nhs-covid-19-data.html

2magpies1pigeon · 21/12/2020 21:38

What do you think they're doing with the data?

HannibalHayes · 21/12/2020 21:45

Waiting until the NHS is more fully privatised, so they know how high to put your insurance.

TatianaBis · 21/12/2020 21:51

@LouiseCollins28

Instant reaction, 35% cut in EU access to UK fishing waters in 5 years time is a joke, and I'm someone who actively wants a deal.
What will you do with all the mackerel?
wherearemychickens · 21/12/2020 22:01

And the shellfish. Fucking fish. We shouldn't be fishing them anyway. Can't believe it's worth the horrendousness no deal will cause for so many people.

HannibalHayes · 21/12/2020 22:13

Ali.
@ali__samson
·
9h
2020 “what fresh hell is this”

2021 “what tinned hell is this”

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2020 22:22

Boris I AM A LIAR Johnson
is willing to chat shit about hundreds of articulated lorries
fucking great metal things that ANY bugger can see
stuck on the roads of Kent.

Is there ANYTHING he will not lie about ?

AuldAlliance · 21/12/2020 22:24

So articulated lorries are BJ's inauguration crowd, eh?
Cute.

boatyardblues · 21/12/2020 23:28

In the replies to that Carole Cadwalladr tweet.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Peregrina · 21/12/2020 23:57

Instant reaction, 35% cut in EU access to UK fishing waters in 5 years time is a joke, and I'm someone who actively wants a deal.

You need to explain why you think it's a joke. They want to fish in our waters, as they have done for centuries. We want to land our catches in their ports. So we exclude the French, Dutch and Danes, but then can't dispose of our catches. I could just see in five years time the fishing community being totally wiped out. The winners will be fish stocks, which would be a bonus.

PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 22/12/2020 07:11

Has anyone thought the "Mass testing of lorry drivers to reopen ports" and the "Schools could be shut throughout January" front page of the Torygraph could be because we don't actually have the testing kits needed for both? (or all the active ingredients etc required to make the kits are stuck the wrong side of the Channel)

Sostenueto · 22/12/2020 07:18

241 billion pounds borrowed so far by the Government 31 billion in November just to fight Covid. If I were them I would ask for my money back cos they certainly ain't winning the fight!

Mistigri · 22/12/2020 07:54

Genuinely - what are people who are still bothered about fish reading if they are prepared to scupper a deal over a million quid's worth of fish that we don't even eat? Is there some fish radicalisation corner of social media that I have yet to encounter?

quiteathome · 22/12/2020 07:56

There is no way in the world there are enough tests to do schools, lorry drivers and NHS staff. A lot of NHS staff have only just started to be tested.

In fact they might just get the schools to make their own tests in their science labs.

TheElementsOfMedical · 22/12/2020 08:09

Is there some fish radicalisation corner of social media that I have yet to encounter?

It's a way of "costly signalling" to reaffirm your faith to fellow BeLeavers.

AdaHopper · 22/12/2020 08:16

AdaHopper · 22/12/2020 08:19

That didn't work. Hopefully this will. A cartoon in the Belgian media about the press conference yesterday that made me giggle.
It says: "I told you the shops won't be empty because of Brexit" ..."They are empty because of Corona"

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
OchonAgusOchonO · 22/12/2020 08:21

And in "let's continue to vote along traditional lines to prove we're British" news, the DUP, UUP and Alliance all vote against a ban on travel from Britain to NI. They do, however, agree advising against non-essential travel.

Applesonthelawn · 22/12/2020 08:24

Always been very impressed with Raoul Ruparel's no nonsense, factual approach to the negotiation (largely because he's been on the inside - there is far too much non-specialised opinion floating around on something this complex) and I hope they do manage to land on fish where he suggests. Thanks for posting the link.

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 08:27

It’s rather fishy that the U.K. fish offer has followed Macron’s border closure.

Ok if BJ was going to cave on fish it would have been around now anyway, and ok Macron is reacting to the U.K. government claims about the mutant strain. But the French know the science behind that claim is highly uncertain and inconclusive and the strain has been around since September.

Would Macron have slammed the border so fast if the U.K. weren’t being a pia?

bornatXmastobequiet · 22/12/2020 08:27

@quiteathome

There is no way in the world there are enough tests to do schools, lorry drivers and NHS staff. A lot of NHS staff have only just started to be tested.

In fact they might just get the schools to make their own tests in their science labs.

Don’t give them ideas!
RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 08:32

@PussyCatInChristmasStockings

Has anyone thought the "Mass testing of lorry drivers to reopen ports" and the "Schools could be shut throughout January" front page of the Torygraph could be because we don't actually have the testing kits needed for both? (or all the active ingredients etc required to make the kits are stuck the wrong side of the Channel)
Its not the test kits thats the issue. Its the people to take the tests and process them.

And its doable and a priority for lorry drivers. Not so for schools...

The government know this but don't want to be the bad guy in saying schools have to stay closed. So they have dumped the responsibility onto schools who just can't manage it. Or will not be able to get parental consent from sufficient numbers. Then they can blame the schools for not facilitating it...

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RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 08:39

Alexander Clarkson @APHClarkson
A likely outcome of an increase in UK fishing quotas is that UK fishing fleets end up hiring migrants from places like Egypt and Tunisa to staff fishing boats as the increase in capacity isn't matched by an increase in the number of British people willing to work in the industry

All this risk loaded up in Brexit negotiations by the UK government over control of fishing waters ends with incremental gains that are a rounding error for the wider economy for fishing fleets that may end up importing labour from North Africa and need access to EU markets

Worth taking a closer look at the working practices of an industry when discussing how gains for it in a trade negotiation might affect economy and society

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DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 08:40

About those fucking fish ...

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
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