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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 13:24

@DGRossetti

Then again, if the Tories fail to get their legislation through and the Government falls, there is no saying that they wouldn't get back in again. So I think it's best that they stay on and they own it.

One of the ERG terror weapons was the fear of a GE letting Labour in again.

But her emails.
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Choux · 22/12/2020 15:10

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/22/worlds-media-ask-how-it-went-so-wrong-for-plague-island-britain-covid?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

So many possible quotes:
Much of the blame was on Boris Johnson, whose U-turn on Christmas had “once more shown the yawning gulf between the prime minister’s airy promises and the real world,” said Germany’s Die Welt.

From the Dutch press: If governing is about forward thinking, Johnson has failed. From ‘saving Christmas’ to a hard lockdown and looming shortages of fruit and vegetables – how can it all have gone so wrong for Britain?”

The Sydney morning herald: Instead, Booster Boris has delivered up a busted flush. Britons have extra cause to feel cheated. They have been whispered fantasies by a prime minister who thinks optimism is a substitute for hard truths and a clear, consistent management plan.”

TokyoSushi · 22/12/2020 15:22

What's going on with the Barnier statement, I can't see anything?

Tanith · 22/12/2020 15:28

DH has been watching James May cooking up and eating catfood recipes.

Apparently, in the 70s, a law was passed that catfood had to be fit for human consumption because so many people were too poor to afford other meat.

I'm not sure at what pitch I would have to be to share dinner with Felix, but I know I'm not there yet Envy

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 15:33

Foie gras tastes like cat food imo. (Quite apart from the animal cruelty aspect).

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 15:39

Foie gras is one of the top 2 biggest let downs of expensive luxury food you’re told is delicious but actually minging. The other is steak.

Not much fun for the goose either.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 16:05

Caviar does nothing for me either.

SabrinaThwaite · 22/12/2020 16:17

There’s steak and steak though - you’ve got to go top of the shop.

DH got given a bottle of Dom Perignon when he left a job a while ago. We had it on my birthday and we both found it seriously underwhelming. Apparently (according to posh friend) once you’ve had Cristal anything else is a let down.

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 16:25

I’ve had the best steak - I don’t like it.

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2020 16:28

I've eaten cat food for a dare it was like cheap pate.
I've eaten cattle cake mad cow jokes not allowed
I happen to love foie gras
Caviar is a take it or leave it, fried herring roes in pepper butter are better.

Steak :
It depends ENTIRELY where you get it.
From a butcher properly hung and then properly cooked ideally ribeye
its a thing of wonder.
Frozen then microwaved then chargrilled to oblivion in a pub
no thanks

Champagne - its OK but I happen to prefer Frexinet

Luxury foods are often not as good as a secret delicacy
like a sausage sarnie on really fresh wholemeal bread with fried onions and lashings of ketchup Wink

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 16:30

I notice that a Sikh charity is trying to help the stranded drivers.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 16:31

Was the catfood the bog standard Whiskas, or was it one of the gourmet selections?

Although, if you are owned by a cat, you know that as soon as you find a brand they say they like, and you lay in a stock, they immediately go off it.

CrunchyNutNC · 22/12/2020 16:35

Steak from the butcher is not automatically better unfortunately, though buying meat from a butcher is a good thing in terms of value passed to farmer.

I've had very poor steak from butcher (far too lean) and really amazing steaks from Aldi and Lidl, that were beautifully marbled and fatty. The fat is where the succulence and flavour is.

You need to ask the butcher for a steak with plenty of fat, often the ones on display are very lean.

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2020 16:36

Peregrina
It was in the 70's before things like pouches had been invented.

At least it was not a brand called Katkins Mariner that old cat and his sister loved - cod heads in jelly - gruesome to serve but SO cheap Smile

DGR
I was just emailing with BCF and LeClerc that its shocking that festival toilets and showers and washrooms were not parked up at Manston from October to be ready for all eventualities.

And Kent Councils are ticketing drivers stuck on main roads Sad

tobee · 22/12/2020 16:36

It's better to eat cat food than dog food; that can make you feel a bit rough.

I'm sceptical about the fish aspect of the trade deal, I think it's a bit of a red herring.

There you go; for those of you missing the pantomime. See also the inside of your cracker.....

Tanith · 22/12/2020 16:37

Felix Poultry and Felix Lamb, DH says.
Plus one of those gourmet chicken and cheese versions.

I don't think Whiskas contains enough meat to count, does it?

HappyWinter · 22/12/2020 16:40

Thanks LQ, I'll look the Two Johns sketches up.

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 16:48

I wonder whether the UK needs aid from India ? Obviously there won't be much in the captive press about a Sikh charity helping out on UK shores, but it won't be for want of retweeting. Maybe Stephen Fry could use his big gob properly for a change ?

Meantime DW and I have given up with "local" anything - but not for want of trying. You really have to ask how "local" your "local butcher" is when you've reached the 10 mile radius and they are still shit. It's not impossible to see where Monty Python got the idea for the Cheese Shop Sketch.

At least they had DWs HRT implant available (now working it's magic) this morning. That's us hunkered down till January now.

quiteathome · 22/12/2020 17:35

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/22/plans-for-30-minute-covid-lateral-flow-tests-in-england-halted-over-accuracy-fears

Are these the school tests being halted? And does that mean my child goes back to school on the 5th rather than the 11th. Or was that a ruse to piss of teachers and gert us used to the idea of a delayed school return.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 18:01

Now up to 3000 lorries stuck in Kent, which now can't deliver other things.

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DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 18:07

@RedToothBrush

Now up to 3000 lorries stuck in Kent, which now can't deliver other things.
So we've gone from what ... 140 lorries (Raab ?) to 3,000 in what ? 48 hours ?
quiteathome · 22/12/2020 18:09

Bloody hell.

Dontlickthetrolley · 22/12/2020 18:19

And if they'd been a but proactive and started testing those at the front of the queue on Sunday we'd at least have some results to show willing to the French.

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2020 18:22

@RedToothBrush

Now up to 3000 lorries stuck in Kent, which now can't deliver other things.
I cannot see why this surprises anybody - least of all our esteemed ministers. 5000 lorries go each way every day the port and tunnel have been shut for a day and a half that means a LOT of lorries are parked up elsewhere in the country waiting to make a run for it

and as the lorries pick up and turn around every 48 -72 hours
nothing will be coming in from the continent

and drivers on the longer runs are not going to jump on a boat to Kent unless they are Brits

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 18:34

It doesn’t actually matter how good your steak is if you don’t like steak. Tender, expensive, butter-smooth steak still tastes like steak.

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