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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
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SabrinaThwaite · 22/12/2020 11:07

So the UK will be hiring in boats and crews to catch the fish we don’t eat just so that we can stick two fingers up to the EU?

Mistigri · 22/12/2020 11:09

The Big Fold on Fish is currently underway.

They went from 80% to 30% in one big slump.

That's what happens when you hand all the cards to your negotiating partner by bigging up the MUTANT VIRUS for domestic political gain.

LouiseCollins28 · 22/12/2020 11:13

@Peregrina

Instant reaction, 35% cut in EU access to UK fishing waters in 5 years time is a joke, and I'm someone who actively wants a deal.

You need to explain why you think it's a joke. They want to fish in our waters, as they have done for centuries. We want to land our catches in their ports. So we exclude the French, Dutch and Danes, but then can't dispose of our catches. I could just see in five years time the fishing community being totally wiped out. The winners will be fish stocks, which would be a bonus.

"Independent coastal state"....obviously the fish are in the sea and aren't owned at all, but the water around the UK with our fishing grounds in it is, well ours. From that twitter feed Red posted earlier.

"Recall we're talking about how much of the €650m of fish currently caught by EU boats in UK waters they should give up/2

The EU side started on 15% then 18% and lately 25%...which French are still unhappy about, we are told...but that equates to €158.68m....that's MILLION...bear in mind this FTA would set rules for bilateral EU-UK trade worth more than €650 BILLION. So this sprats n minnows /3

Put another way, the EU offer of 25% cuts, equates to, I am told,

  • France losing 7% of their quota,
  • Denmark 6% and
  • Netherlands 8%.

Obviously a deal needs to be arrived at so we're not going to get it all back overnight, but 35% which as I undestand it working from the figures above could be a loss of maybe 10% for France, 8% for Denmank and 9/10% for the Netherlands, in several years time presumably.

Coastal communities have been going to the wall for decades, they need change quickly. Fine to have a transition for as long as it takes to build new fishing boats maybe 2/3 years, longer than that is just stalling IMO.

TheDinosaurTrain · 22/12/2020 11:17

Barnier announcement due at 3pm GMT today

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 11:19

The Big Fold on Fish is currently underway. They went from 80% to 30% in one big slump.

This still won't be enough for the ERG. I look forward to them having an almighty strop.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 11:24

Louise- I was looking more for a response which told me how British one time trawler owners were desperate to get them back, and what Government support was going to be given to them to enable them to buy back their boats. I wasn't really looking for a re-hash of something I have already read( but maybe I didn't read it on this thread!)

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 11:35

@Peregrina

The Big Fold on Fish is currently underway. They went from 80% to 30% in one big slump.

This still won't be enough for the ERG. I look forward to them having an almighty strop.

I do hope so. The ERG wanted managed no deal not actual no deal. They thought EU would walk from FTA negotiations a long time back and they would be finalising talks on the managed bit of no deal by now.

Macron action today is a wake up call of what chaos he can cause (irrespective of his actual motive). EU are currently saying no managed no deal - either straight FTA or no deal with only emergency/contingency measures in place.

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 11:39

*Sunday not today

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 11:40

...

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
TonMoulin · 22/12/2020 11:47

If they thought so Tatiana then they shouldn’t be allowed to be MPs and taking decision for the whole of the country when they have such a poor understanding of what the EU and the Uk are (incl the high level of interdependence between the two entities)

I mean thinking that the EU will cave in in what is their fundamental concept was stupid.
History has also shown they are tricky negotiators and have experience of dealing with much bigger fish than the U.K.

How could they even think that?

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 11:57

@Peregrina

The Big Fold on Fish is currently underway. They went from 80% to 30% in one big slump.

This still won't be enough for the ERG. I look forward to them having an almighty strop.

And not voting for a deal they don't like.

Because there will be consequences if they vote for it, and then bellyache for the next fifty fucking years about it.

Following his Tory-lite conversions, I imagine Starmer will get Labour to vote for it too. Not really sure why we have an opposition these days.

AuldAlliance · 22/12/2020 11:57

How could they even think that?

How and whether they think: two million-dollar questions right there...

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 12:00

Yes, I imagine Starmer will get Labour to vote for it. He really should abstain, or at least make it a free vote, so that the blame (or praise) is fairly and squarely on Johnson and his chums.

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 12:07

@Peregrina

Yes, I imagine Starmer will get Labour to vote for it. He really should abstain, or at least make it a free vote, so that the blame (or praise) is fairly and squarely on Johnson and his chums.
He should vote against it. Simply because it's a Tory Brexit.

If that means the ERG have Boris' balls in their clammy hands - oh dear, what a shame.

In fact Starmer has the perfect response:

No deal is better than a bad deal

.

However given how far he's drunk the kool aid over Scotland, I wouldn't hold out any hope. He's not really interested in democracy.

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 22/12/2020 12:10

I'm in Spain, my kids (9 and 12) have been wearing masks at all times in school (including outdoors and for PE) since the summer. They never complain. There have been 2 cases in the secondary and no cases in primary. All children must wear masks from 6 up but most under 6s wear them anyway.

My 12 year old is in the first year of secondary so doesn't know the teachers. He saw one teacher without a mask for a brief moment recently and said he looked quite different to how he'd expected, a strange receding chin 😂😂

HilaryThorpe · 22/12/2020 12:15

I think if Starmer voted against he and Labour would be torn apart in the right-wing press and blamed for everything that followed no-deal for evermore. If there was reasoned debate, a fair press and a politically aware electorate than it would be the right thing to do. But in the current state of the UK it would be an utter disaster.

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 12:18

@HilaryThorpe

I think if Starmer voted against he and Labour would be torn apart in the right-wing press and blamed for everything that followed no-deal for evermore. If there was reasoned debate, a fair press and a politically aware electorate than it would be the right thing to do. But in the current state of the UK it would be an utter disaster.
If the Tories wanted Labour to vote for it, they should have included Labour in the talks. It's that simple.

If the Tories can't get a Tory Brexit through the Commons, then fuck them and let them fall. Since it's hard to argue a General Election has to follow. Although I'd be quite happy to see a Tory government forced to stay in power just to own their shit.

AuldAlliance · 22/12/2020 12:22

My DC have adapted to masks, too. As have I - I sometimes come in and potter around the house for a while before I remember I have it on and can take it off.

I removed mine for about 10 seconds at the start of each first lesson with all my students and remained silent, so they could see what I looked like. Just before Christmas, DS2's maths teacher did the same, and then said the pupils could, too, in turn. When DS2 removed his, the teacher exclaimed, "Oh! la vache!" quite a forceful expression of astonishment in French, which we are still uncertain how to decode. Hmm

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2020 12:24

Kids are VERY adaptable
and treating them as sentient beings - enforced mask wearing
to save their futures and their families lives
makes complete sense

I wear a mask whenever I'm indoors
its interesting at the gym that most of the men do not
but the women do

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 12:26

Bloomberg: EU rebuffs UK’s latest offer on fish

The European Union rebuffed Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s latest concessions on fishing rights, dealing a setback to efforts to secure a post-Brexit trade deal.

Johnson spoke with Commission President Ursula von der Leyen twice by phone on Monday to try and break the deadlocked negotiations. The U.K. made an offer that would see value of the fish EU boats catch in British waters shrink by 30%, a substantially smaller drop than the 60% it was demanding last week.

The bloc, however, refused to accept a reduction of more than 25%, saying even that was hard for countries like France and Denmark to accept, according to officials with knowledge of the discussions.

The EU wants to be able to impose tariffs on the U.K. if, in future, the government restricts access to its waters. In its latest compromise offer, the U.K. said it would accept tariffs on fisheries but not in other areas, such as on energy, as demanded by the bloc.

The European Commission is consulting member states on the British offer, and Michel Barnier, the bloc’s chief negotiator, is scheduled to brief their 27 ambassadors at about 4 p.m. in Brussels on Tuesday. It’s possible a compromise can still be reached, officials added.

The nub of it is that the EU expects the U.K. to renege on fish or try to use it as ongoing negotiating tactic. EU wants to balance fishing with energy - ie if you dick around with mackerel we will cut off your energy.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 12:27

But Starmer and Labour will be blamed by the right wing press, come what may, so they might as well hold their collective nerve and say that they can't vote for it.

It reminds me of the article in the New European the other week - one of Corbyn's excuses for not showing up at the People's Vote marches was that coming out for Remain wouldn't play well with the Red Wall - he would lose their support. Which he lost a couple of months later anyway.

If you believe a course of action is right, you should be prepared to stand up and be counted.

Then again, if the Tories fail to get their legislation through and the Government falls, there is no saying that they wouldn't get back in again. So I think it's best that they stay on and they own it.

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 12:30

Summary of the EU/U.K. fish position by Monty Python:

HappyWinter · 22/12/2020 12:50

There's a Bremner, Bird and Fortune sketch about the Conservative government of the time, I can't find a clip but it's about the chickens coming home to roost and has the confused politicians asking "where have all these chickens come from?". Perfectly describes our current step up, all their chickens are coming home to roost now.

They should have sorted the schools out at the start. Most kids would at least try to wear masks, one of mine is primary and will wear one in a shop sometimes. And getting the testing and tracing working properly, they have had long enough.

ListeningQuietly · 22/12/2020 12:55

HappyWinter
Some of the Two Johns sketches about Brexit and the EEC are spectacular in their prescience

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 13:19

Then again, if the Tories fail to get their legislation through and the Government falls, there is no saying that they wouldn't get back in again. So I think it's best that they stay on and they own it.

One of the ERG terror weapons was the fear of a GE letting Labour in again.

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