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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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IsFuzzyBeagMise · 16/12/2020 07:53

Thank you for the summary.

Whenwillow · 16/12/2020 07:57

That last thread went quickly!
Thank you Red as always. You have such a knack of distilling things down for the likes of me. I get very lost on Twitter.

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 16/12/2020 08:01

I've noticed a lack of visits on these threads from our favourite Brexit cheerleader - surely there must be something to cheer about? If nothing else the creation of the fabulous new eco-lorry pond in Kent must be cause for celebration?

PawFives · 16/12/2020 08:12

PMK thanks Red what a shambles it all is.

Good article in The Guardian talking about how Johnson’s aversion to making a decision (or doing any work whatsoever) means he waits for a crisis to develop when the choices narrow and then ‘responds’ to the crisis he has caused by choosing a shit option which could have been avoided.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/15/boris-johnson-pandemic-britain-christmas-covid

NotAKaren · 16/12/2020 08:15

PMK Thanks Red and all for your wonderful insights.

TheElementsOfMedical · 16/12/2020 08:24

PMK with our nati-veg-ty scene.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 08:30

It's telling from at least one other thread on MN how many people seem to think that once Boris has waved his magic wand

(following space left intentionally blank for mind bleach)

and there's "a deal" then everything goes back to "normal". Completely not getting that rights to travel and live and work have gone forever along with healthcare and pet passports.

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 08:42

Yes, there is a subtext.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
QueenOfThorns · 16/12/2020 08:46

I think we might be in that photo somewhere DGR!

prettybird · 16/12/2020 08:55

Need to do some tidying of the refugee camp Wink

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
borntobequiet · 16/12/2020 09:05

PMK with our nati-veg-ty scene.

I love that!

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 09:20

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
COVID-19: For the first time in its history UNICEF will help feed children in the UK

UNICEF says it is the first time in its 70-year history that it has responded to a UK "domestic emergency".

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 09:21

@RedToothBrush

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter COVID-19: For the first time in its history UNICEF will help feed children in the UK

UNICEF says it is the first time in its 70-year history that it has responded to a UK "domestic emergency".

They can scope the UK out for peacekeeping too ...
OchonAgusOchonO · 16/12/2020 09:22

www.rte.ie/news/2020/1216/1184735-brexit-uk-eu/

Ursula von der Leyen told MEPs this morning: "I cannot tell you whether there will be a [Brexit] deal or not, but I can tell you there is a path to an agreement. The path may be very narrow but it is there."
.
.
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Ms von der Leyen said outstanding issues around governance, or how to settle disputes, had "largely been resolved."

She said the "architecture" of a solution on the level playing field rested on the twin pillars of state subsidies and how both sides will approach the issue of labour, social and environmental standards.

This would involve both sides being able to take action through tariffs or other measures if there were distortions of trade.

Ms von der Leyen said fisheries remained "very difficult".

"In all honesty it sometimes feels that we will not be able to resolve this question, but we must continue to try and find a solution, and it is the only responsible and right course of action.

"We do not question the UK's sovereignty in its own waters, but we ask for predictability and stability for our fishermen and our fisherwomen."

So looks like fisheries is the only barrier now.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 16/12/2020 09:32

PMK with thanks to RTB and all the rest of you.

Those who shared that Bloomberg story about hauliers, have you shared it on any other MN threads? It deserves a wider audience.

KenDodd · 16/12/2020 09:38

That UNICEF story makes me so angry. Children (and adults) living with food insecurity and £200 fucking billion for Brexit.

FatCatThinCat · 16/12/2020 09:41

pmk

bellinisurge · 16/12/2020 09:59

johnsondossier.com/

In case any of our favourite cut and paste merchants deign to join us. Or just for everyone else, here is a link to a dossier compiled by Led By Donkeys of ever single fucking shitwank that Johnson came out with about how great Brexit will be. All his promises. All of it.

Find one he's kept.

GeistohneGrenzen · 16/12/2020 10:17

pmk and thanks

SabrinaThwaite · 16/12/2020 10:19

Slightly depressing take from Simon Wren-Lewis:

I have consistently argued that Brexit is much more about the political players who pushed it rather than the voters who adopted it. So what have they gained as a result of Brexit actually happening? The short answer is political power, but that makes Brexit nothing more than a pretext.

mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2020/12/brexit-may-be-pointless-but-it-will-be.html?m=1

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 10:33

[quote SabrinaThwaite]Slightly depressing take from Simon Wren-Lewis:

I have consistently argued that Brexit is much more about the political players who pushed it rather than the voters who adopted it. So what have they gained as a result of Brexit actually happening? The short answer is political power, but that makes Brexit nothing more than a pretext.

mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2020/12/brexit-may-be-pointless-but-it-will-be.html?m=1[/quote]
'Tis better to rule in hell, than serve in Heaven

Sad
OhYouBadBadKitten · 16/12/2020 11:15

pmk. Thanks Red.

FatCatThinCat · 16/12/2020 11:21

Sadly I now think that the EU should step back and let the UK crash out. The UK needs to experience the horrors of no deal to break the spell.

mrslaughan · 16/12/2020 11:33

Fatcatthin I often have moments of that during the day- think fuck 'em let them feel the pain of their ignorance.....
But then I think about medicine and food shortages, and how they won't necessarily effect me- but they will have devastating effects on those in society that are least able to deal with it. Maybe they are calling for it , maybe they voted for it - but they are just the useful fools who have been taken advantage of by a group of exceedingly wealthy and powerful cabal . So desperately want a deal - no matter how bad it is - as it will mitigate the worst of it.

titchy · 16/12/2020 11:33

Pmk