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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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OchonAgusOchonO · 22/12/2020 08:42

The government know this but don't want to be the bad guy in saying schools have to stay closed.

I don't understand why they don't just mandate mask wearing in schools. That's what has been done in Ireland in secondary schools and there have been no major transmission in schools. Most of the cases in schools are in primary where masks aren't worn, a ridiculous decision in my opinion. No masks for the youngest classes has some merit but older ones definitely should be wearing them.

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 08:43

Would Macron have slammed the border so fast if the U.K. weren’t being a pia?

Another Brexit bonus. For the next 20 years, all UK interaction with any EU country is going to be - as far as our wonderful press are concerned - in the shadow of Brexit. Every decision is going to have to be viewed in the same way an ex-partner manages to find everything their ex does about them. Even 50 years on.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 08:50

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
Good to see @Marthakearney on @BBCr4today taking @pritipatel to task over the numbers of lorries in Dover - now 1,500 in Stack (M20) and Manston airfield combined - rather more than 170 that @BorisJohnson said yesterday, baffling haulage groups /1

She won't say whether lorry drivers will have to take a PCR test (long-winded, requires RNA extraction etc. 24-48hrs) rather than much faster (and less sensitive) lateral flow test. Short Strait will struggle to operates with PCR tests. You'd need one yesterday for tomorrow! /2

Because of the delays that have empty lorries already stuck in the queues, in an earlier interview British Retail Consortium @the_brc Andrew Opie said fresh food shortages would occur within days because lorries couldn't get back to Spain etc to reload /3

Haulage experts like @RHADuncanB are always at pains to explain that the lorries at Dover (and GB-IE, for that matter) are flowing in a continuous cycle. More than 85% are from EU countries. So if you block one side, or artery the whole system starts to grind to a halt/4

This episode has been a bit of a teaching moment, exposing the canard that the UK can unilaterally "take back control of its borders". It can't. Borders are membranes. Traffic flows in both directions. Actions by one side impact the other - as French move has demonstrated. /5

The UK government attempts to diminish the importance of the Short Strait (Dover Calais) is slightly baffling - I guess it maybe calms people down, stops panic buying, but reality is there is no escaping that 70+% of UK fresh produce is from EU in winter/6

So @pritipatel saying that we can use airfreight instead, doesn't really take much account of the relative volumes that come in by road across the Short Strait and by air, or the relative costs /7

When Grant Shapps @grantshapps was playing with the numbers yesterday - simply not comparing like with like in terms of containers entering the UK, one haulier I know replied with a single word "Nonsense".

I think the government, when it tries to mask realities like this, really does think it is being clever, when really it risks taking everyone for fools - which arguably why the #COVID19 comms have been so utterly disastrous. /9

Better to trust people with the facts, because once you start to distort them habitually - as we've seen with #Brexit - you get trapped in a fallacious narrative of your own making. That might work for a while, but ultimately it makes a soggy foundation for government. ENDS

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RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 08:59

Jon Worth @jonworth
Also - related - Tony Connelly reckons the EU needs a political agreement by the end of tomorrow to even manage to get everything done with Provisional Application. Plus there's some text to be scrubbed still... We might be in a weird place just 36h from now!

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DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 09:05

Better to trust people with the facts, because once you start to distort them habitually - as we've seen with #Brexit - you get trapped in a fallacious narrative of your own making.

Which pretty much sums up the collapse of the Third Reich.

I reckon the root of all of this lies in the printing processes of old. I'm no expert on book binding, but generally all the pictures in books tended to be stuck in the middle. So what happens is people like Priti Patel start reading "A history of the Nazis" (for example) and can't get past the pictures for some odd reason .... (the uniforms I guess). So they never get any further to see how it ends.

I may write a monograph on it.

Feldgrau, anyone ?

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 09:19

@OchonAgusOchonO

The government know this but don't want to be the bad guy in saying schools have to stay closed.

I don't understand why they don't just mandate mask wearing in schools. That's what has been done in Ireland in secondary schools and there have been no major transmission in schools. Most of the cases in schools are in primary where masks aren't worn, a ridiculous decision in my opinion. No masks for the youngest classes has some merit but older ones definitely should be wearing them.

There you go. Bloody Europeans being sensible and asking sensible questions. Tsk. And you wonder why we are leaving the EU.

The British are special. Our children are even more special. Why should they wear masks?

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DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 09:27

The British are special. Our children are even more special. Why should they wear masks?

Indeed. Much harder to see how hungry they are if they wear masks.

bornatXmastobequiet · 22/12/2020 09:29

I like the borders as membranes analogy.

At the risk of being accused of tiresome reminiscence (which I know I do a lot), a very long time ago I part-owned and worked a small beam trawler. Fishing is an arduous, difficult and often non-profitable occupation. It’s also dangerous. No one with an alternative to long hours spent in the cold on a violently tossing platform operating heavy machinery and at the constant risk of losing your catch by accident would choose to do it.
Of course, when I look back, I mostly remember the long calm summer mornings or evenings quietly trawling up and down with a cigarette and a cup of coffee to hand, not trying to pee in a bucket during a gale and have the winch break just as you get started...

OchonAgusOchonO · 22/12/2020 09:31

The British are special. Our children are even more special. Why should they wear masks?

There was a thread a while back about a couple of trump supporting covid deniers being kicked off a plane on their way to dinner with friends because they couldn't/wouldn't put a mask on their 2 year old. Posters were claiming making children wear masks was abusive and violent. The ridiculous attitude of some of the posters was pretty unbelievable

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 09:38

.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
KonTikki · 22/12/2020 09:46

My daughter works in a primary school in Spain, her class are aged 6.
They all wear masks on school premises, and have been doing so since the summer.

HesterThrale · 22/12/2020 09:47

Patel on Radio 4 this morning saying it’s now clear the answer is mass testing.
WHO said that on 16th March.
Grrr.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-51916707

Also said:
20% of our goods come through Dover. Anyone here know the facts? I’m sure the % of our fresh food goods coming through Dover must be higher.
And that ‘air freight is an alternative method’. Surely nonsense? Can’t imagine 10,000 lorries-worth of food goods being landed at airports daily and then successfully collected and transferred to distribution centres. (And organised quickly over Christmas.) But I don’t know and would listen to expert opinion on it.

Does she actually believe this? (Intelligence klaxon)
Or, is it that many voters will hear it, not apply critical thinking skills, feel comforted and think ‘yeah the government is in control’. Which is what happened with the impossible Brexit promises...

Patel: Disingenuous or deluded?

OchonAgusOchonO · 22/12/2020 09:50

@KonTikki - my niece's 3 year old ds, also in Spain, wears one to pre-school. Spanish children are obviously born with some form of special gene that allows them to wear masks without being traumatised.

bornatXmastobequiet · 22/12/2020 09:53

Patel: Disingenuous or deluded?

Both. Also dangerous and deceitful.

squareofthehypotepotenuse · 22/12/2020 10:02

Scottish kids (in secondaries at least) are also wearing masks.....

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 10:07

A likely outcome of an increase in UK fishing quotas is that UK fishing fleets end up hiring migrants from places like Egypt and Tunisa to staff fishing boats as the increase in capacity isn't matched by an increase in the number of British people willing to work in the industry

A similar situation pertains in Spain - fishing boats tend to be crewed by South Americans for exactly the same reason.

OchonAgusOchonO · 22/12/2020 10:13

Are they not traumatised @squareofthehypotepotenuse?

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 22/12/2020 10:19

At DD2's 6th form students can choose whether or not to wear masks in class. Masks must be worn in corridors and shared spaces.

Most wear masks, including DD. They've had 1 case since going back in September. Coincidence? I think not.

squareofthehypotepotenuse · 22/12/2020 10:26

Tbf yes I think they are mostly hating it.

And carry on, nonetheless

Mistigri · 22/12/2020 10:29

Secondary kids in France have been wearing masks full time at school since September. Primary (age 6 up) since the beginning of November. They have adapted much better than adults in my experience. Wearing masks is just normal for my teenagers now.

Mistigri · 22/12/2020 10:44

Oh boy the Mumsnet brexiters are furious about Mr Macron having control of his own borders.

OchonAgusOchonO · 22/12/2020 10:53

@squareofthehypotepotenuse

Tbf yes I think they are mostly hating it.

And carry on, nonetheless

Really? My ds and his friends aren't particularly bothered by them at this stage.
OchonAgusOchonO · 22/12/2020 10:54

@Mistigri

Oh boy the Mumsnet brexiters are furious about Mr Macron having control of his own borders.
What thread @Mistigri?
RedToothBrush · 22/12/2020 10:59

@Mistigri

Oh boy the Mumsnet brexiters are furious about Mr Macron having control of his own borders.
Its fucking hilarious.
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TheABC · 22/12/2020 11:04

That's cheered me up. I've got along with Tunisians in the past and I like the idea of more of them in our fishing villages; assuming, of course, that they want to come.

I have finally found a Brexit dividend!

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