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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 18:38

I read the news today oh boy
3000 lorries stuck in Manston, Kent
they tried not to count them all.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 18:39

I agree about steak - I dislike it and can't for the life of me see why people rave about it.

bornatXmastobequiet · 22/12/2020 18:45

They interviewed a couple of lorry drivers on the PM programme. I felt very sorry for them. What a horrible situation to be in.

Words · 22/12/2020 18:50

I heard that too, Born, and felt the same. Sad

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 18:50

www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/1222/1185975-johnson-von-der-leyen/

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator has described as "totally unacceptable" a reported offer from the UK on the fisheries element of the future relationship negotiations.

Peregrina · 22/12/2020 18:53

I wonder just how many of those drivers stuck at Manston and on the M20 once the finally get home after having their Christmas wrecked, are going to rush to drive back to the UK? Or will they, like the Brexiters blame the French?

TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 18:53

Barnier told reporters: "We are really in the crucial moment, and we are giving it the final push.

"In ten days the UK will leave the single market and I will continue to work, in total transparency with the European Parliament and the member states."

bellinisurge · 22/12/2020 18:54

I love the schtick that they are managing the Kent situation "so well" because they are using contingency plans in place in case of a No Deal Brexit.
Which I thought wasn't going to be a problem so I'm not sure why they needed contingency plans.
And it hasn't happened yet so fuck knows how they'll handle the real thing.

SabrinaThwaite · 22/12/2020 18:57

Meanwhile ... Johnson has been busy stuffing the HoL with his cronies.

This is from Professor Meg Russell at the UCL Constitution Unit:

"It is hard not to see the Prime Minister’s latest round of peerage appointments as anything less than outrageous"

Daniel Hannan?

FFS.

www.gov.uk/government/news/political-peerages-2020

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
TatianaBis · 22/12/2020 19:01

Michel Barnier tells EU ambassadors his offer on fisheries, ie 25pc of the value of the fish caught in UK water by EU boats, is final, rejects the UK's 35pc offer. Diplomat says a deal is close but the "overall balance" regarding fisheries and other issues "not there yet"

Diplomat says a deal may not be ready in time for the Dec 31 deadline.

Key point: Barnier told ambassadors the UK offer of 35pc did not include pelagic stocks, and if it did it was closer to 60pc. "It's not 25pc v 30pc, it's 25pc v 60pc" says official. Also, the UK offer excludes any access to the 6-12m zone, Barnier told ambassadors

@tconnellyRTE

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 19:01

Meanwhile ... Johnson has been busy stuffing the HoL with his cronies.

Worth noting that clearly didn't go so well for Boris hero Trump ....

DrBlackbird · 22/12/2020 19:03

That article on Palantir charging the UK $1 for its 'services' in return for access to NHS data is... huh... interesting.

Apparently it was to enable the UK govt to ...set up a national platform that would allow health officials to understand how the coronavirus is spreading across the U.K. and help them allocate resources appropriately.

So that's worked out well hasn't it. All of our highly sensitive medical data in exchange for a well managed informed response to manage the pandemic.

Never mind that there is no such thing as 'anonymous' (even aggregated) data. It is always possible to trace back to the individual. Or that it may not just be a matter of setting out insurance premiums, there are many in the US refused insurance and even jobs because of pre-existing conditions.

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 19:04

That article on Palantir charging the UK $1 for its 'services' in return for access to NHS data is... huh... interesting.

Post Brexit that's £1,000,000 ....

DGRossetti · 22/12/2020 19:06

Never mind that there is no such thing as 'anonymous' (even aggregated) data. It is always possible to trace back to the individual.

Yes ... that'll be interesting too. I've been banging on about (what I call) triangulated data for years.

UltimateFoole · 22/12/2020 19:07

@bellinisurge

I love the schtick that they are managing the Kent situation "so well" because they are using contingency plans in place in case of a No Deal Brexit. Which I thought wasn't going to be a problem so I'm not sure why they needed contingency plans. And it hasn't happened yet so fuck knows how they'll handle the real thing.
Yep. This. ^^
lakesidexmas · 22/12/2020 19:23

Cat and dog food made in the UK is sampled by the humans who produce it ( it is also sampled by hapless people drafted onto to the production lines for part of their management training etc)
Cat food is higher in fat I was told so I have led been to believe that dog food was easier to digest for humans in an emergency.

Emilyontmoor · 22/12/2020 19:38

Cat Food is rich in meat protein because cats need certain amino acids. If dogs, who are omniverous and need a mixed diet, break through all your defences get to the cat bowl it has very unfortunate effects, from experience, especially in a working breed that is deranged even when on a low protein diet. Dog food on the other hand can contain all manner of fillers and other shit, cereal and meat derivatives sound enticing?

Of course some people have huge chest freezers which they use to give their dogs a raw food diet that most humans would be fine with, indeed probably a better diet than if you shop in Iceland, and more expensive. Unfortunately in our house we go with the vet recommended grain free chicken and rice kibble - so a life of dessicated cardboard food I really don't blame the dog for lusting after the cat food awaits in the Brexit sunny uplands.

titchy · 22/12/2020 19:38

@Peregrina

I wonder just how many of those drivers stuck at Manston and on the M20 once the finally get home after having their Christmas wrecked, are going to rush to drive back to the UK? Or will they, like the Brexiters blame the French?
Won't most be from countries that celebrate on Christmas Eve, not Christmas Day, so even if they got over the channel on Thursday it's too late - tomorrow or nothing if they want to celebrate with their families Sad
HannibalHayes · 22/12/2020 19:41

A GENUINE BREXIT DIVIDEND!

For Gibraltarians.

Gibraltar is finalizing associate membership of Schengen, according to El País. UK citizens will need to show passports to enter, Spaniards won't.

Emilyontmoor · 22/12/2020 19:50

Sorry if that was less than serious but shit just piles on shit. I feel so sorry for those lorry drivers.

On the science front there is still not enough data to say whether the spike in the new variant is caused by behaviour or greater infectiousness, it is still circumstantial. Nor is it certain that it originated in the UK, it was identified here but we have better sequencing capability. Local public health officials have rejected proposals to switch from PCR testing to lateral flow and it seems as if the government has conceded that they are pretty useless as a means of controlling the virus now. When did Cummings stop work on his mass testing project? 18th was it? Ever taken over from someone in a job and have a chance to get rid of the pet projects they were way too invested in because they were shiny and new but actually rubbish if you understood the problem? usually by men who were better at talking over the desks than getting anything done

TheABC · 22/12/2020 19:51

The French are allowing professionals and nationals back across the border as long as they have a negative covid-19 test. Ideally, that would be the lateral flow test that you can take in 15 minutes before moving to the ferry load area.

Otherwise, I don't know how they intend to reduce the queues quickly.

frumpety · 22/12/2020 20:47

@ABC, NHS staff are instructed to wait 30 minutes for the results of their lateral flow tests to show. And due to them not being all that accurate if you get a positive result , you then need a PCR test.

cherin · 22/12/2020 20:47

What are they going to do with the ones that are positive? Assuming some of those 3.000+ are bound to be positive and Kent is locked so no hotels, where are these guys expected to spend the next 10 days of quarantine?

cherin · 22/12/2020 20:48

(Conjures images of convoy of trucks slowly driving through the Strand to take over the savoy)

titchy · 22/12/2020 20:54

@cherin

What are they going to do with the ones that are positive? Assuming some of those 3.000+ are bound to be positive and Kent is locked so no hotels, where are these guys expected to spend the next 10 days of quarantine?
3000 lorry drivers, sharing 70 portaloos. Inevitably half a dozen of them will have had CV19 when they arrived. How many now...?