Are there any Brexiters left?

[Miljea]

... on here, or more or less anywhere on SM? The last entry on 'Leave Means Leave' is months old. Though I understand most sites are 'member only', now....

I am really quite surprised how they more or less evaporated on MN! They appear to be gone!

Why?

Was I an idiot to respond to so many, like, off the top of my head, mummmytime? Were they a bot??

The Arms collapsed. The victors are, well... gone!

Why is that?

Anyone who knows me will know I am a Remainer, but I patiently read, often 500 threads!- pros and cons, to 'get a handle' on the direction of travel.

However, now absolutely no one, bar Clav, is standing up for Leave.

I find the silence more chilling than the arguing.

Were you excluded from voting?

@Caroncanta - yes!

The other disenfrachised group were those who have lived overseas for more than 15 years. Cameron had promised to enfranchise them, but didn't bother. Now maybe they are not too fussed about what happens in a General Election in a country they no longer live in, but for those EU residents it affected them very much.

Exactly. This was my situation. No vote. Still have to abide by the outcome though which has been both costly and stressful.

I've heard Leave voters say that being in the EU feels like a boot on their neck, they feel oppressed and weighed down by it. It's a foreign power controlling everything in their lives and the EU flag looks like a Nazi flag to some.

This is hyperbole that some people actually feel like this. I am not having a go at the poster, as they are staying how some leavers have expressed themselves.

The EU is a rules and treaty based organisation that enables trade by coordinating regulations. Certain people in the UK don't like not being able to dictate the rules. That is not the same at all as oppression.

Unfortunately real examples of oppression exist in English history and are pretty brutal. Compare Kenya to the most annoying EU law that can be thought of - cleaning up beaches/tax avoidance? Even up to the present day: refusing Scotland a referendum on its own independence.

The UK was not oppressed by the EU. Feelings should be rooted in reality, especially if they are inflicted on the rest of the population.

The other disenfrachised group were those who have lived overseas for more than 15 years.

It might have been the 25 year rule but for this man;

Mr.Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) House of Commons 1989;

"In a spirit of generosity, I tabled an amendment specifying 10 years. On reflection, I was probably a little too generous. I am sure that the Minister will be grateful for that and will accept my amendment."
"Twenty-five years is excessive in the extreme. People who have been resident abroad, working abroad, earning money abroad and probably not paying taxes abroad are not likely to be interested in politics in this country." "The Government's motive is to find a pool of voting fodder for the Tory party in the tax havens around the world."

"They are not interested in democratic movements in this country, because they have set themselves up in some other country and earn their money there. My 10-year rule would allow those people who have working contracts abroad—for example, those in the diplomatic service—to maintain a link with this country I believe that a period of 25 years is quite ridiculous and, therefore, I commend my amendment to the House."

Clavinova I am fully aware how Corbyn was responsible for reducing the time limit to ten years. It does not alter my point one whit to say that Cameron promised to restore the franchise to those people and failed to do so. Hence when he held his referendum to solve his cat fight in the Tory party he failed to re-enfrachise people who were directly affected by the result.

Corbyn was known to be a Lexiter and voted No in the 1975 Referendum.

(Some of us don't need to cut and paste having been alive at the time , and working as a poll clerk on that first Referendum.)

Exactly. This was my situation. No vote. Still have to abide by the outcome though which has been both costly and stressful

Do you not live in the UK then?

@Caroncanta

Exactly. This was my situation. No vote. Still have to abide by the outcome though which has been both costly and stressful

Do you not live in the UK then?

There were 3 million UK citizens not resident in the UK who were affected.

Some countries even set up polling stations overseas, for their expatriates to vote - usually in embassies or consulates.

There were 3 million UK citizens not resident in the UK who were affected

I know. The ones who hadn't lived or worked here for over 15 years.

Just think how much simpler the US election wold have been had it disenfranchised overseas voters in the way the UK does?

Which other countries disenfranchise citizens who live overseas ?

In the USA they even allow American citizens who have never lived there to vote, never mind ones who have been gone for 15 years.

So the question has been answered - some people were disenfranchised and some EU citizens resident in the UK had their names crossed off the register and were denied a vote. There was talk of legal action about that, but I don't know how far it went.

Losing the right to work and live across the EU

Yes loads of people cite this one despite having never have done either of these things

Many friends and family have worked in the EU, from civil engineering to IT to construction, to tourism even agriculture.... none of us were remotely middle class.
There will be barriers to work now, experience, income, language & opportunity, access to healthcare.....

After 4 years, no one has come up with the positives that make Brexit worthwhile.

Do you not live in the UK then?

No...which is why I said that I was in that situation. To be honest, it doesn't make much difference whether it's 15 years or 25 years. The fact that only some British citizens were allowed to vote to take away the rights of all British citizens is incredible when you think about it. I will never see that as being anything other than grossly undemocratic.When I tell friends here that that is indeed the case they frequently don't believe that any government would allow it!

Fair enough. It wasn't a rule designed for Brexit. It's been like that for a long time. You must have known that before you left the UK right?

But given that the Brexit referendum was a one off, the rules could have been adjusted. They allowed people in the Lords to vote as an example.

Cameron was arrogant enough to believe he would win the 'vote but really, its done now.

If we want Brexit altered (can't go back in time) then get behind Starmer and hope he can be our next PM because so long as the Tories are in, we will be increasingly isolated from Europe.

Fuck no, I won't be voting labour for a very long time. If ever again in my lifetime. They have totally lost their way. If things are bad now I dread to think how much worse it could be under labour.

You must have known that before you left the UK right?
What? That if I used FOM at some time in the future the government would take it away, leave me high and dry and not allow me to vote. No, nobody knew that.

@Caroncanta

Fuck no, I won't be voting labour for a very long time. If ever again in my lifetime. They have totally lost their way. If things are bad now I dread to think how much worse it could be under labour.

It seems to be an interesting development that no matter how bad you are doing in UK politics, you are absolved from actually doing better as long as you can persuade people the alternatives are worse.

Seems a far cry from the aspirational politics of the past, sadly. And almost certainly guarantees a race to the bottom.

What? That if I used FOM at some time in the future the government would take it away, leave me high and dry and not allow me to vote. No, nobody knew that

The 15 year rule was decided in 2002. Some people surely would have known that if they were planning to leave the country for a long period of time surely. Or is it something that some people didn't think to investigate?

Seems a far cry from the aspirational politics of the past, sadly. And almost certainly guarantees a race to the bottom.

Maybe so. Like the Biden Trump affair. In the spirit of South park, a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

Why are you trying to shift the blame? There are not a lot of referendums held in the UK, even fewer that directly affect rights linked to citizenship. It is not unreasonable to think that any democratic government would not allow such a referendum to go ahead without allowing all British citizens a vote.

@Caroncanta

Fuck no, I won't be voting labour for a very long time. If ever again in my lifetime. They have totally lost their way. If things are bad now I dread to think how much worse it could be under labour.

No point you complaining about Brexit then.

Considering the tory response to CV and the (lack of) preparedness for 31/12, i'd say Labour would do considerably better.

Lets face it, had Lab won in 2015, there would never have been a brexit section in MN.

I'm not shifting the blame. I'm just pointing out the facts. Sorry if that doesn't suit you. But it is what it is. And if someone is going to leave the country then it's wise to check these facts which have been in place for a pretty long time. It's unfortunate. And I agree, it doesn't seem fair. But that doesn't really change anything does it. You can't insist the rules are changed because there's something you didn't know about or didn't find out about. Well you can ask for it to be changed. But you can't be surprised when it isn't. It's pointless having a hissy fit at those who were able to vote, because the results of that didn't go the way those who could no longer vote (because they haven't lived here for year), didn't like. 🤷