Are there any Brexiters left?

[Miljea]

... on here, or more or less anywhere on SM? The last entry on 'Leave Means Leave' is months old. Though I understand most sites are 'member only', now....

I am really quite surprised how they more or less evaporated on MN! They appear to be gone!

Why?

Was I an idiot to respond to so many, like, off the top of my head, mummmytime? Were they a bot??

The Arms collapsed. The victors are, well... gone!

Why is that?

Anyone who knows me will know I am a Remainer, but I patiently read, often 500 threads!- pros and cons, to 'get a handle' on the direction of travel.

However, now absolutely no one, bar Clav, is standing up for Leave.

I find the silence more chilling than the arguing.

No, he has to negotiate a deal which the powerful Irish American lobby, now represented by the President elect, find acceptable, which is not the same.

I don't think the Obama administrations review of Brexit even considered the Irish lobby in 2016. Even they could not have foreseen where we are now.

Meaning their analysis that the UK leaving the EU being bad for US interests wasn't based on that but more fundamental concerns.

However, you're right that there's now an extra rock in the channel that the UK needs to steer around. Or sink on.

Such as?
specifically?

Well that's quite a big discussion isn't it about every part of what was better, and what we hope to be better, and what might be worse, which would simply take all day. And tbh, listing my views here for a self appointed judge to pick apart and seek demands for clarity isn't really want I'm going to waste my time on, sadly for you.

Let's turn it round. What are your hopes for Brexit? What would you lile to see. What are your specific concerns about Brexit. Let's try and break those down for you 🙄

My hope for Brexit- it doesn't fuck up the Good Friday Agreement; we have our Suez moment (google it) and realise we're not all that

What are your hopes for Brexit? What would you lile to see. What are your specific concerns about Brexit. Let's try and break those down for you
Losing the right to work and live across the EU
Losing access to the industrial and commercial markets of Europe
Losing a seat at the biggest table in the world for diplomatic influence
Losing a seat at the table on science, climate change and technology
Losing access to reliable food sources
apart from that, not much

@bellinisurge

Am I a bridge builder? No, not naturally but I really really tried. I actually got called "patient " on here for my efforts which made me chuckle. My posts about Brexit now are sweary and dismissive of Brexiteers because a) I am sweary and b) I am fed up of the continued delusional nonsense. The idiots one here who think it's done and dusted like it was a TV show, don't deserve my politeness. We are in transition and have a chance to make this tolerably ok with a deal. Not a great deal because we lost that after the referendum. But a deal. I care passionately about the NI border and am horrified that those clowns in Westminster want to fuck with it by undoing the NI protocol which They Signed. There is still chance to make it ok. And there is still chance to fuck it up.

I don't disagree with anything you say in your post, bellinisurge, I share your frustrations but I'm not going to hold a mistaken/misguided general public to higher account than the Westminster Clowns whose job it was to do the best for all of us.

The NI Border is the single biggest potential threat to the peace agreement as far as I'm concerned and I'm outraged that the politicians haven't put in place the necessary safeguards for it.

If and when this is ever resolved, some things need to become inviolate and unchangeable at PM level, they really do. We can't go through this again.

And I'm worried because he's pro Europe and does not agree with Brexit that he will make things worse for the UK.

Biden isn't going to make things worse for the UK. We've done that to ourselves. Biden just isn't going to limit the damage we've voted to inflict on ourselves. Why should he?

Why ask Remainers what their hopes are for Brexit?

Put it another way, if I vote Labour and the Tory gets in, what would you expect me to say? I would only hope that they don't mess it up too much for me. If the Labour party got in, then I would expect them to try to honour their manifesto pledges, or at least give me a convincing explanation as to why they can't.

Biden's primary aim will be what is good for the USA. If he decides that this is forging better links with the EU that is what he will try to do. He won't hold back because the UK decides to have a tantrum and bleats on about a Special relationship.

Put it another way, if I vote Labour and the Tory gets in, what would you expect me to say? I would only hope that they don't mess it up too much for me. If the Labour party got in, then I would expect them to try to honour their manifesto pledges, or at least give me a convincing explanation as to why they can't.

Not a single pledge of the Brexiteers has been honoured. Not one. Not even a pretence of honouring them.

If remainers had been proved demonstrably wrong at this stage of the game, then we wouldn't be having these repeated discussions. But they haven't. None of the Brexiteers promises has come into view, let alone existence. Meanwhile the rest of the world moves on and away from the UK.

^What are your hopes for Brexit? What would you lile to see. What are your specific concerns about Brexit. Let's try and break those down for you

Losing the right to work and live across the EU

Yes loads of people cite this one despite having never have done either of these things. With the right skills and qualifications no doubt those opportunities will still be available. But yes the freedom of movement as we know it is over.

Losing access to the industrial and commercial markets of Europe

But the EU do actually want to have a deal with us, it's a two way street. Trading with us benefits them too.

Losing a seat at the biggest table in the world for diplomatic influence

Not much can be done about this. However I would not want the UK to be in a situation where we have no seat at the table and no say but still subject to their rules. And a bad Brexit deal could mean this to all intents and purposes.

Losing a seat at the table on science, climate change and technology

This may or may not be a problem. Yet to see.

^Losing access to reliable food sources
apart from that, not much^

Indeed this could be more problematic.

I have worked abroad including the EU before and during freedom of movement. The latter was much easier for what it's worth.
And it isn't all posh gap yah kids doing it. It's ordinary people from ordinary backgrounds doing service industry jobs for poor pay but getting amazing life experiences. Which they couldn't dream of getting now.

Yes loads of people cite this one despite having never have done either of these things.

I hoped to retire to the EU. Theres absolutely no way I'd be able to afford to do that now.

And I did work in the EU when young, minimum wage, low skill jobs. I grew up in the poorest part of the country on state benefits. These opportunities are gone for kids like me.

Losing the right to work and live across the EU
I live and work in Italy. It has already cost me hundreds of euros just to maintain my current legal status. When I arrived here I had student debt and very little money but I was able to apply and take up a post for very little outlay. Most people won't be able to risk it. I also was hoping to retire to the UK at some point with my DH but that's looking unlikely. I also didn't get a vote yet my rights were still removed. Do you consider that democratic?

My adult children have done exactly that, @bellinisurge.
We're not posh - they worked their socks off working in bars to save enough to travel, then landed in EU cities where they have settled for the time being, working at whatever they can to pay the rent.
It's tough, due to this year's events, but have settled status/residency. Neither are keen to return to the UK, and visiting them will no doubt become more complicated

Yes loads of people cite this one despite having never have done either of these things. With the right skills and qualifications no doubt those opportunities will still be available.

I know a lot of people who have done this, and yes they are well educated and have the right skills. But it's all got much more difficult for them than it was. Before hand - apply for a job, go, start. Now - well with a few weeks to go we don't know exactly what will be required. Will our qualifications be recognised? Will we need a visa? If a German firm has a need for a scientist and there is a choice between a French person or Swedish person, who can start as soon as they have worked their notice, or a UK one who needs a visa which takes (how long? we don't know.), who are they going to hire?

Caron
I've told you what I've lost / I feel I've lost.

Now tell us what you think you will gain from the UK trading on WTO terms with the EU

Losing the right to work and live across the EU

Yes loads of people cite this one despite having never have done either of these things.

Sounds a little too close to I don't have children so why should I pay for yours if I'm honest. You could say the same of a fire service too.

"Loads of people want one despite never having used it"

Do you consider that democratic?

The vote was democratic. The outcome may not however feel like that.

Now tell us what you think you will gain from the UK trading on WTO terms with the EU

Do you think I'm a leave supporter? Because the way you address me seems to indicate that you do think that. Or is this in lieu of not having any actual leave supporters to argue with because they've all left? Which is hardly surprising given the aggressive attitude. However I will not be standing as a substitute for you to vent your annoyance on. Got a problem with Brexit? Then bloody go and tell Boris about it.

But in answer to your question, I doubt we'll gain much at all from a WTO deal. I doubt we'll gain anything from a shit EU deal either.

Hope that helps.

Ok?

Sounds a little too close to I don't have children so why should I pay for yours if I'm honest. You could say the same of a fire service too

It's simply an observation.

@Caroncanta

Sounds a little too close to I don't have children so why should I pay for yours if I'm honest. You could say the same of a fire service too

It's simply an observation.

and a justification ....

and a justification

I'm not justifying it though. Why on earth would I need to? I don't really feel the urge to justify decisions made by others.

The vote was democratic.
That depends on your definition of democratic. If can assure you that if your rights have been taken away in an election where you were excluded from voting, it certainly doesn't feel like true democracy.

That depends on your definition of democratic. If can assure you that if your rights have been taken away in an election where you were excluded from voting, it certainly doesn't feel like true democracy.

Were you excluded from voting?

Some EU citizens were disenfranchised from voting in Local Elections, which they were perfectly entitled to do.

The other disenfrachised group were those who have lived overseas for more than 15 years. Cameron had promised to enfranchise them, but didn't bother. Now maybe they are not too fussed about what happens in a General Election in a country they no longer live in, but for those EU residents it affected them very much.

Some are effectively disenfranchised by postal ballots going out too late - but the way round this is to appoint a proxy.