Are there any Brexiters left?

[Miljea]

... on here, or more or less anywhere on SM? The last entry on 'Leave Means Leave' is months old. Though I understand most sites are 'member only', now....

I am really quite surprised how they more or less evaporated on MN! They appear to be gone!

Why?

Was I an idiot to respond to so many, like, off the top of my head, mummmytime? Were they a bot??

The Arms collapsed. The victors are, well... gone!

Why is that?

Anyone who knows me will know I am a Remainer, but I patiently read, often 500 threads!- pros and cons, to 'get a handle' on the direction of travel.

However, now absolutely no one, bar Clav, is standing up for Leave.

I find the silence more chilling than the arguing.

At the moment with the Transition, it's Brexit in Name Only.

But let's see the debate on whether Johnson's mandate to provide an Oven Ready Deal, and No Deal are in fact one and the same. Or let's see the debate about lorry parks in Kent and Customs declarations.

Nor is it a very convincing argument to declare that the EU is bullying us - a skillful negotiator would be able to stand up to that. If we haven't got a skillful negotiator, why not?

I would also say that in a lot of places Gay sex is still very much a live issue.

Brexit has happened.

But there is still a chance that Johnson will see sense and sign a good trade deal with the EU.

Then everybody will be happy

Oh silly me.

@ListeningQuietly

Brexit has happened.

But there is still a chance that Johnson will see sense and sign a good trade deal with the EU.

Then everybody will be happy

Oh silly me.

Oh I wouldn't say that, maybe deluded or misguided?

I am not sure that Johnson and sense go together in the same sentence. I genuinely don't know whether he wants a deal or not. Some of his right wing most definitely don't.

Johnson could take the defeat on parts of the Internal Markets Bill in the Lords last night to make a climb down, and this would play well with the new President elect in the USA. But so far, all he has said is that he will re-introduce the amendments in the Commons. Now he may just be playing to the right wingers with him quietly crossing his fingers behind his back that he can do a U turn. He most certainly has form for screeching U turns.

But there is still a chance that Johnson will see sense and sign a good trade deal with the EU.

It's not about seeing sense. It's about whether he is able to negotiate a deal that is in the best interests of the UK. If he isn't able to then we will be leaving and trading under WTO rules.

It's not about seeing sense. It's about whether he is able to negotiate a deal that is in the best interests of the UK. If he isn't able to then we will be leaving and trading under WTO rules.

How will the WTO rules the UK will still be a rule taker not a rule maker be in the best interests of the UK ?
What do you understand by the term WTO rules ?

Because those who supported Brexit seem to think that the WTO is a panacea
rather than an entirely unaccountable organisation of 480 unelected bureaucrats in Geneva
a non functioning Apellate body thanks Trump
169 members each with a veto.
and an incoming boss who believes in cooperation not separation

You don't see the campaigners any more for the corn laws, independence for India, votes for women and whether gay sex should be legalised. I wonder why not.

Thing is Brexit takes rights away from us, that is just a fact.
Now leave voters are obviously happy about that but lots of Remainers aren't. Imagine if women could always vote and there had been a successful campaign and referendum to take away their vote. Would you say they should just shut up and get on board with what the majority voted for? Brexit removed our say on Europe wide issues and yesterday stripped us of our right to live and work freely in 31 other countries from 31/12/20. We are the only major country in Europe who's citizens don't share this right. I think our young people particularly have every right to be angry about this and every right to continue to fight for these rights to be restored to them.

Except the Leave voters rushing to get Irish passports were clearly not quite as happy as they make out or they wouldn't have bothered.

Would you say they should just shut up and get on board with what the majority voted for?

What do you propose to do about it then? Because arguing about it on a forum isn't actually going to change things is it.

How will the WTO rules the UK will still be a rule taker not a rule maker be in the best interests of the UK ?
What do you understand by the term WTO rules ?

Did I say it was a better deal for the uk? No I didn't. I just said what would happen next. It is potentially a better deal than a bad deal from the EU. Is it better than what we had before Brexit? On the face of it, probably not.

@bellinisurge

Because those matters are closed. We may have left but we are in transition and don't yet have a deal. No deal would be a disaster and it is telling that posters are unwilling to engage on this. Brexit is a bit shit and we will agree to disagree on that. But A no Deal Brexit would be a catastrophe and you are abdicating responsibility for it.

Who exactly is the 'you' that you believe to be responsible for abdicating responsibility? No member of the public has responsibility for setting up a deal, we have politicians with a mandate for that. Do you think wrangling on a chatboard is going to achieve something there?

As for you complaining that posters are 'unwilling to engage', do you ever read your posts back to yourself? You'd have the answer right there, you're really combative.

And you really thought you were the right person to 'build bridges'? Yes, sure you did. Provocation and bear-baiting is what many, many remain posters engaged in and enjoyed doing so. The targets have left the building.

@Caroncanta

But there is still a chance that Johnson will see sense and sign a good trade deal with the EU.

It's not about seeing sense. It's about whether he is able to negotiate a deal that is in the best interests of the UK. If he isn't able to then we will be leaving and trading under WTO rules.

He now also has to negotiate a deal that is in the best interests of the US too.

It's one thing for the US to be remotely curious about the weird thing called "Brexit".

It's another when they have determined that Brexit damages their interests.

To be honest I wasn't that interested in the US views on Brexit. But reading these past few days that Team Biden has actively said it damages US interests rather perked me up. That's not a great place to be.

Me too, DGRossetti, perhaps the US interest will apply the leverage needed.

To be honest I wasn't that interested in the US views on Brexit. But reading these past few days that Team Biden has actively said it damages US interests rather perked me up. That's not a great place to be

No it's not. Bidens election is not possibly the greatest thing for Brexit. I don't believe Boris wants to leave without a deal, although I know many Tories aren't to bothered about that. But I would hate to see the UKs negotiating being forced into a deal by Biden that may not be right for us either.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

Me too, DGRossetti, perhaps the US interest will apply the leverage needed.

I doubt it. In a stroke of brilliance, the Tory party purged itself of the moderates it needs to pull back from this. All MPs are now committed to voting for whatever they are told.

Remember: Brexit is an article of religious faith with it supporters that would have made the UK a republic had the Monarch intervened. With that level of worship, telling the US to "do one" is no big deal at all. Not great for the UK as a whole really. But then since Brexit was never about that, it's no big deal either.

Still early days. Lets see what order the handshakes are dished out in on this side of the pond, now the UK is out of the EU so can't photobomb the opp when the Biden administration tours Europe.

Wishful thinking on my part, I know. I'm so pleased that Trump has gone (is going eventually) that I'm lulling myself into a false sense of security that Biden will do better and the UK will be better off because of that.

As you say, early days. It's very interesting though.

Am I a bridge builder? No, not naturally but I really really tried. I actually got called "patient " on here for my efforts which made me chuckle.
My posts about Brexit now are sweary and dismissive of Brexiteers because a) I am sweary and b) I am fed up of the continued delusional nonsense.
The idiots one here who think it's done and dusted like it was a TV show, don't deserve my politeness.
We are in transition and have a chance to make this tolerably ok with a deal. Not a great deal because we lost that after the referendum. But a deal.
I care passionately about the NI border and am horrified that those clowns in Westminster want to fuck with it by undoing the NI protocol which They Signed.
There is still chance to make it ok. And there is still chance to fuck it up.

I'm so pleased that Trump has gone (is going eventually) that I'm lulling myself into a false sense of security that Biden will do better and the UK will be better off because of that.

I'm scared that Biden will fuck up women's rights in the states once and for all by conflating sex and gender in the equality act. And I'm worried because he's pro Europe and does not agree with Brexit that he will make things worse for the UK.
But I try to remain hopeful that neither of these things will turn out to be true 🤦

Caroncanta
Would you be happy if the UK ended up on WTO rules?
Would that make Brexit worth it ?

@Caroncanta those are things you can do nothing about but you can write to your MP and demand that they abide by international law rather than, as said explicitly in Parliament, break it in a "limited and specific way".
That way a Biden Presidency won't have a legitimate reason to fuck us over.
As for messing with women's rights, I agree with you. That's fucked up and we need to keep an eye on it. But making ourselves international pariahs by explicitly breaking international law won't help.

And I'm worried because he's pro Europe and does not agree with Brexit that he will make things worse for the UK.

He won't deliberately make things worse for the UK. But he sure as hell won't let the UK make things any worse for the US than is practically possible. And if that means the UKs Brexit is a pile of dog poo. Tough. That's how the cookie crumbles. Maybe we'll think twice before falling for such populist claptrap in future.

It would howlingly outrageous if all of this was a U-Turn of [Boris] Johnsonian proportions from their side. But it's merely a restatement of the position back in 2016. Brexit is a shit idea. 4 years - hell 40 years - won't change that.

Would you be happy if the UK ended up on WTO rules?

Not particularly. But it really depends what the alternative deal with the EU might look like.

Would that make Brexit worth it

WTO deal? Probably not. But then again, I did vote remain, so obviously I wouldn't think Brexit on a WTO deal (or a bad EU deal for that matter) is worth it. It's now a case of hoping that what we get now is better, and not worse, than what we had before.

He now also has to negotiate a deal that is in the best interests of the US too.

No, he has to negotiate a deal which the powerful Irish American lobby, now represented by the President elect, find acceptable, which is not the same.

His mouthing off about Obama and being half Kenyan won't help him either with a VP elect whose parents were born in the British Empire.
Well, tough Johnson, except you will be OK - you will swan off to make after dinner speeches, it's the rest of us who will suffer.

No, he has to negotiate a deal which the powerful Irish American lobby, now represented by the President elect, find acceptable, which is not the same.

Indeed.

It's now a case of hoping that what we get now is better, and not worse, than what we had before.
Such as?
specifically?