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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

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prettybird · 12/09/2020 12:45

I nodded particularly vigorously at this point in DGR's post of the Digital Journal oped about the UK becoming a failed/non state:

Brexit: Fiction disguised as policy disguised as sovereignty disguised as patriotism disguised as finding other people to blame for the mess.

I also find it gobsmacking that BJ claims that they've only just realised that "one interpretation" Hmm of the WA is that there would be a hard border in the Irish Sea Confused

Every commentator and expert at the time that the bill was being rushed through Parliament with indecent haste and as pointing that out Confused Did the MPs just put their fingers in their ears and sing, "La, la, la" ? Confused

Ok, don't answer that Grin And no, I'm not really gobsmacked - given the quote above from that oped. Angry

Failed state indeed Sad

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:51

@SabrinaThwaite

Tom Cockcroft on Twitter (at Bar Council meeting)

Suella Braverman says she can't explain why she turned to prominent leave activists for advice re internal market bill rather than independent members of the AG panel

I think everyone else can explain though.

I did wonder if the Bar Council had any scope to censure - or even expel - Buckland and Braverman ... maybe as Bar Councils around the world start waking up and wondering if they can deal with a professional body that tacitly condones illegal and unethical counsel ?
Darker · 12/09/2020 12:53

Let's hope - but it's dimming - that it isn't with bombs on the mainland again. I'd be jolly cross if I survived the 70s in London only to cop it in the sequel.

Indeed. That was the backdrop to my childhood.

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:59

@Darker

Let's hope - but it's dimming - that it isn't with bombs on the mainland again. I'd be jolly cross if I survived the 70s in London only to cop it in the sequel.

Indeed. That was the backdrop to my childhood.

The only glimmer of hope is that the current crop of clowns are so mind bogglingly incompetent you wouldn't need real bangs - well one or two to show you can. Then a series of "warnings" at strategic times and places to bring the country to a standstill. Although the problem with that is the country needs to be moving to start with. To a certain extent Boris and the Boys have half done any would be terrorists job for them.
ListeningQuietly · 12/09/2020 13:16

I went to a car boot sale this morning as a seller

  • no social distancing
  • a few masks
  • they are certain they will be allowed to run next weekend
listening to conversations
  • zero awareness of Brexit or politics
  • lots of Bulgarians and Romanians buying TVs and suitcases (I do not understand either)

99% of the population do not give a fig about international law
so long as they can buy a bacon roll from a van

Pepperwort · 12/09/2020 13:20

@Mistigri

Remarkable how little attention people are paying to this (outside legal circles, the heavily politically engaged, and currency traders).

Not a single active thread on this, as Johnson takes the UK into no deal without parliamentary scrutiny and effectively blows up the union.

People just don't care. You have to wonder what will need to happen to make them care.

Sorry this is a bit late. I started a thread on it in Aibu since no one else had. Really it needs someone with legal knowledge, which is probably part of the problem. But this bill is hugely significant, and it really should be being discussed throughout the media. Can’t imagine something of this significance being just ignored 30 years ago can you.

The degeneration of the UK, and the desire to stick heads in the sand is alarming.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2020 13:43

@Mistigri

Remarkable how little attention people are paying to this (outside legal circles, the heavily politically engaged, and currency traders).

Not a single active thread on this, as Johnson takes the UK into no deal without parliamentary scrutiny and effectively blows up the union.

People just don't care. You have to wonder what will need to happen to make them care.

All to busy being 'bored of covid' now.

The average attention span is shrinking.

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Darker · 12/09/2020 13:55

Just listening again to Any Questions?. Mimms Davies... fucking hell. Describing the Withdrawal Agreement as 'EU law'.

Darker · 12/09/2020 13:56

Mims. The MP, not the Service Station. Confused

Darker · 12/09/2020 13:59

What's also massively worrying me is the lack of attention to other hugely important issues. E.g. the galciers are melting and California is ON FIRE. I don't see governments planning any moonshot for that.

borntobequiet · 12/09/2020 14:05

@Darker

Just listening again to Any Questions?. Mimms Davies... fucking hell. Describing the Withdrawal Agreement as 'EU law'.
She was spouting total nonsense and outright lies. A perfect representative for this government.
TatianaBis · 12/09/2020 14:13

New legislation “entirely consistent with the rule of law.”

You can tell he’s stupid just from looking at him.

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
SabrinaThwaite · 12/09/2020 14:13

@TatianaBis

New legislation “entirely consistent with the rule of law.”

You can tell he’s stupid just from looking at him.

You can tell he’s lying because his lips are moving.
WorriedMutha · 12/09/2020 14:21

Apart from all the hand wringing, is there any sign of anyone taking action against Johnson's plans. With a thumping majority most of his unprincipled disciples will vote them through. Any sign of Gina Miller, Jo Maugham, the EU, SNP? The Bar Council grilled the AG earlier today but she unashamedly ducked their questions. Clearly the public are bored of Brexit and I'm just wondering how we put a rocket up this as was done with prorogation when they were arrogant enough to try that.

Focalpoint · 12/09/2020 14:22

This is from David McWilliams in today's Irish Times:

In the immediate term, the Brexit story is by far the most intriguing. Right now, people are anxious, not least because Britain is again trying to use Ireland as the hostage in its negotiation with the EU. Beyond this theatre lies what looks like a far more important shift in Conservative thinking on the economy. For Ireland, this shift in the UK constitutes a huge opportunity and here’s why.
The Conservatives used to be the party of free trade and free enterprise. No more. They are now the party of tariff barriers and State aid. One of Margaret Thatcher’s achievements in the 1980s was getting behind the Single Market project.

For a free trader such as Thatcher, the practical prospect of no customs, barriers or tariffs was far more important than romantic notions of sovereignty. Even she could see there was a middle ground to be sought and found. Boris Johnson is a different creature.
Last December, Johnson create a new political hybrid: the blue-collar/red-trouser Tory. His vote combined the blue collar, pies and pub brigade of the north of England with the red-trouser, sailing and Chablis cohort in the south of the country. Quite an electoral achievement. Thatcher could never do this.
The new Tories in the north, the blue collars, must be mollified by more government spending and significant state aids. Johnson’s aim is to create an industrial powerhouse in the north using taxpayers’ money, picking tech winners that will be identified by bureaucrats rather than the market and propped up by government intervention.

In this way, he aims to buy votes, creating a permanent Conservative majority in the midlands and the north. The background noise to the so-called “levelling-up” project will be English nationalism, exemplified by Brexit and amplified by the Daily Mail and the Daily Express.
This model, combining the all-knowing muscular state picking winning companies with the bombast of blood-and-soil nationalism, is straight out of the Juan Peron playbook. In fact “Eton Peronism”, a sort of upper-class nativism, is an accurate description of the Johnson/Cummings project.
To achieve his political aims, Johnson needs enemies within, the Scottish nationalists; and enemies without, the meddling EU. And he also needs a chequebook and a currency that is capable of devaluing, and devaluing a lot.

All very 20th century. British Leyland economics for the Tesla Age.
Such economic and strategic illiteracy creates a wonderful opportunity for Ireland. The first thing to appreciate is that in the real world, companies are not State-anointed; they evolve.

Successful companies, like successful art, are the product of trial and error, mistakes, tinkering around, talent and lots of luck. It doesn’t mean the government can’t help, of course it can, but the world-beating companies that Johnson so desperately craves are not conceived by committee. They are also global.
In fact, they are less national companies and more global supply chain operations, buying and selling all over the world, neither sourcing material nor selling exclusively in any one jurisdiction.
With the UK going rogue, ripping up international treaties and ditching free-market economics, Ireland will look like a much better bet for investment, capital and skilled migrants.
Ireland’s business model should still be that we are an attractive place to do international business, both for locals and foreigners. Investment that might otherwise have gone to the UK may come here. Our job will be to manage it.
The policy that has served us well for the last few decades is still the template. When compared to the UK, things haven’t been going too badly in Ireland.

Let me give you two facts that I have used before to demonstrate the divergent trends in both economies in terms of trade, dependence and income.
In the early 1950s, an era beloved of Brexiteers, when Winston Churchill was prime minister for the last time, 91 per cent of Irish exports went to the UK. Today, that figure is 11 per cent and falling. Britain is still a huge trading partner for us, but its dominance has diminished dramatically.
Maybe relatedly, incomes have decoupled. For example, since 1995, Irish income per capita (using the CSO’s preferred new measure GNI*) rose from €13,934 to €40,655 in 2018 – that’s nearly three times higher.

In contrast, UK income per capita rose from £21,716 in 1995 to £30,594 in 2018 – an improvement in living standards of less than half. The growth dynamo in Ireland is far more powerful and we can maintain that if we do our job, which involves fixing housing, building public infrastructure and constantly improving the business backdrop. Falls in commercial property prices are a reduction in the cost of doing business and should welcomed.
The UK is still hugely important economically and culturally to us, for obvious reasons. England and English people are our closest neighbours. Close to half a million Irish people live in England. They are our cousins and friends; but the London government has changed direction and there is nothing we can do about that. Scotland too will change as a result.
We have been decoupling for many years as our divergent growth rates underscore. Looking forward, who knows where this will end. Breaking international law might just be the start of it. However, when your neighbour becomes unhinged, all you have to do is nothing to look sane.
In global economics, the importance of looking sane should not be underestimated.

SabrinaThwaite · 12/09/2020 14:23

@jonlis1

Oof. Just on Times Radio where eminent Tory MP Sir Roger Gale has accused Suella Braverman of 'telling the government lies' and says the people threatening to break the Union are Cummings and Johnson. Just what will it take for the Tory Party to accept these people are unfit?

TatianaBis · 12/09/2020 14:28

Just what will it take for the Tory Party to accept these people are unfit?

National emergency presumably.

£100 says Sue-Ellen was named after Dallas.

yoikes · 12/09/2020 14:56

ugh

ListeningQuietly · 12/09/2020 15:13

Just what will it take for the Tory Party to accept these people are unfit?
The I'm all right jack drawbridge pullers are quite happy.

Pensioners have not been affected by the risk of job losses / furlough
as state pensions are triple locked
and private pensions are index linked
almost nobody has yet retired fully on a DC pension

Tory party members own their own homes

  • no risk of eviction

They think that youngsters are being unreasonable about student loans and house prices
and those with children and grandchildren have the means to give them a leg up
jumping past all of those who are being negatively affected by COVID and those who will be hit by Brexit.

Remember that in the shire counties, COVID death and infection rates are very very low
in rich villages full of Tory members, almost nobody has died

ListeningQuietly · 12/09/2020 15:15

PS
At the car boot sale there was a chap checking the bargains from the house clearance vans
goes by the name of Jim Ratcliffe
the rich stay rich by being tight

TheABC · 12/09/2020 15:45

The problem is that the Brexiteers are bored of the debate and no longer want to think about it whilst anyone same and paying attention are appalled, but not listened to.

I am finally at the "fuck it" end of the spectrum. I think this will need to end badly just to get people's attention.

Emilyontmoor · 12/09/2020 15:59

Listening Remember that in the shire counties, COVID death and infection rates are very very low
in rich villages full of Tory members, almost nobody has died

Are you sure of this? Remember what kick started this epidemic was people returning from half term ski holidays in Italy. Many of them to rich villages and towns. It's just they weren't tested and who knows how many resulting deaths were not diagnosed as Covid. The highest death rates in Bradford are not in the central postcodes where the outbreak is now concentrated. It was in the affluent villages and towns around back in March. Basically the middle classes went skiing and bought it back to kill their elderly neighbours. I don't think it changed the endpoint though, still racist and lacking in empathy, their Tory MPs including the lovely Phil Davies speaking up for them to get them freed from lockdown

twitter.com/docjohnwright/status/1290390849403129858?s=20

ListeningQuietly · 12/09/2020 16:06

Emily
Look at the ward by ward map.
Its astounding how low the cases are in many areas.

Take Wiltshire - 364 deaths, 1,500 cases in total to date
in a population of 720,000

Or Dorset (excluding BCP) 162 deaths, 707 cases
in a population of 367,000

Low population density, affluent areas have not been hit hard

Bradford, population of 540,000 has had 6899 cases and 513 deaths

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2020 16:21

Look at the ward by ward map.
Its astounding how low the cases are in many areas.

Yep.

Remember that in the shire counties, COVID death and infection rates are very very low in rich villages full of Tory members, almost nobody has died

Also yep.

Not just shire areas.

Look around Greater Manchester.

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FrankieStein402 · 12/09/2020 17:09

COVID death and infection rates are very very low in rich villages

Presumably on account of the hoi polloi not mixing with the riff raff