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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

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Peregrina · 07/09/2020 01:50

I think Johnson himself may end up with an international reputation, but it won't be the one he wanted.

As for a u-turn - very likely, but he will lie his way out of it.

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/09/2020 01:52

pmk. Thanks Red

Darker · 07/09/2020 05:01

I kind of laugh (in a desperate, pillow-hugging way) when I hear Johnson going on about XR and ‘freedom of speech’ while he’s clumsily manoeuvring his tank around the democratic process, trying to control the BBC and other journalists, and while the media is so heavily influenced by Murdoch. I’m sure XR have lost a lot of support over their latest actions but it feels like we need some big gestures these days.

I feel utterly helpless.

Sostenueto · 07/09/2020 05:33

PMK with shock that this Government could renage on an International Treaty! Wtf is going on?

borntobequiet · 07/09/2020 05:33

Thanks again. Another Monday morning in the disease ridden circus that is the U.K. Hoping one day this whole shitshow will implode, we will wake up, it was all a bad dream etc...
However the weather looks good this week so will be wearing my summer clothes for a few more days.

Lonelycrab · 07/09/2020 06:26

Thanks as ever Red and all the regulars on these threads. After a break from Brexit for a while I’ve read the last thread or two from top to tail and I’m so glad there are sane people who understand what’s going on so well. Doesn’t stop it being an utterly shit situation and it just seems to get worse and worseSad

Completely dejected what the fuck is going on pmk

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 07/09/2020 06:39

Thanks red

Its all sadly as unsurprising as it is shitty

Singasonga · 07/09/2020 06:55

More utter incompetence from Johnson, spun as plucky-lion-rampant-Britain.

All these cock-ups are having an effect, though. I saw my elderly, true blue Tory in-laws yesterday for the first time in weeks, and even my ex-banker FIL was making snarky comments about Johnson being too focussed on trying to give Barnier a bloody nose to pay attention to Covid or getting Amazon to pay appropriate tax on their U.K. earnings.

Regularname · 07/09/2020 07:05

I haven’t been able to face Brexit, these threads or the news for ages but it’s coming back to the main headlines. Hate what UK has become, trying to comfort myself it wasn’t all of us. Sad

BlackeyedSusan · 07/09/2020 07:10

Morning. Dgr's pessimistic posts from a couple of years back are beginning to seem better than reality.

It ain't looking good.

Kids back to school today. God knows for how long.

Planning a trip to the supermarket to top up the stash.

God help us!

quiteathome · 07/09/2020 07:12

Morning,

Just placemarking.

Don't know if there is anything that can be done now. Apart from sob into coffee. Would a strongly worded email to my Tory MP do anything? And I am struggling to find the words.

A little more stockpiling I guess.

GaspodeWonderCat · 07/09/2020 07:34

I have just emailed my Tory MP. He might grow a spine and argue against it - first time for everything. But not holding my breath.

Every time you think it can't get any worse - it does.

Thanks RTB and all regular contributors. Keeping an eye on @prettybird garden sanctuary as will be patrolling the ramparts at this rate ...

yoikes · 07/09/2020 07:42

Weary pmk

pointythings · 07/09/2020 07:43

Deeply depressed PMK from me. What a shitshow this country is.

FatCatThinCat · 07/09/2020 07:43

If this goes ahead and he does indeed renege on the withdrawal agreement, does that mean the EU/Ireland will have no choice but to impose a border on the island of Ireland?

HoneysuckIejasmine · 07/09/2020 07:43

Morning all. Thanks for the thread, Red.

JamieLeeCurtains · 07/09/2020 07:52

@FatCatThinCat

If this goes ahead and he does indeed renege on the withdrawal agreement, does that mean the EU/Ireland will have no choice but to impose a border on the island of Ireland?
Johnson probably thinks he can and will get away with saying, well that's a decision for Ireland.

He is a deeply venal, dangerous man.

PawFives · 07/09/2020 07:53

Another weary PMK

NotAKaren · 07/09/2020 07:57

A despairing PMK

NI once again a political football being used to boost Johnson's credibility among Brexiters after his disastrous year of U turns and incompetence. Do people really need any more evidence of how bad this government is?

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 08:01

Tony Connelly @tconnellyrte
Hard to know what to make of @pmdfoster story on the Internal Market Bill and the NI Protocol, except to say that Peter has been unfailingly accurate and painstakingly diligent in his long reporting on Brexit.

2/ The immediate response from my Irish sources are as follows: "not good" and that it is "clearly part of an overall stepping up of the noise by the UK", but that Michel Barnier's Task Force would want the UK to clarify things this week

2/ The immediate response from my Irish sources are as follows: "not good" and that it is "clearly part of an overall stepping up of the noise by the UK", but that Michel Barnier's Task Force would want the UK to clarify things this week

4/ However, @rtenews is running another story tonight (online shortly) that London has for weeks been asking Dublin to intercede with the European Commission to be flexible on the NI Protocol and in return the UK would help Ireland on the land bridge issue

5/ The story is supported by senior sources in Dublin and London. Specifically, Irish officials have been asked if they could persuade the Commission to allow supermarket consignments going GB-NI to be checked at GB depots, rather than at NI ports

6/ Under the NI Protocol SPS checks and customs formalities for food and agrifood trade flows to supermarket chains have been the most sensitive politically, and will require infrastructure (Border Control Posts), vets, IT systems etc at NI ports

7/ London has also asked Dublin to persuade the Commission to allow checks and controls on live animals coming in from GB-NI to be done at abattoirs, and again, not at ports...

8/ In return, London has suggested it can make life easier for Irish trucks relying on the UK land bridge to bring exports from IE to the rest of the single market via Dover and other UK ports.

9/ The land bridge is an ongoing issue for Ireland as Irish trade flows from one part of the single market to another risk being entangled in long queues at Dover, esp if there is no deal...

10/ It's understood the UK has talked about "facilitations" for Irish trucks, although there are no details yet as to what they might look like...

11/ Dublin is sympathetic to the NI Protocol being implemented in as smooth and pragmatic way as possible, so long as EU law is respected... Senior European Commission officials are also trying to be helpful on the supermarkets issue, but so long as the rulebook is not thrown out

12/ However, Dublin has responded to UK overtures cautiously: Ireland has long resisted any bilateral fix with the UK (ever since the referendum). Secondly, Dublin does not want to get into a trade on something Ireland and the EU believe the UK has already signed up to

13/ Thirdly, getting into a parallel negotiation could detract from the UK getting with the obligations of the Protocol, which the EU has insisted must be complete by the end of Dec [ok, the FT story will blow all that up if true]

14/ Dublin is also wary about what "facilitations" London has in mind on the land bridge: some ideas might look good in theory, but how would they work in practice?

15/ For example, could Irish trucks really be fast-tracked, without enraging not just UK drivers, but also other European ones who are returning after dropping off or picking up loads...

16/ Of course, if the FT story does signal an intention by the UK govt to walk away from its obligations under the Protocol, then all this is academic... and we'll undoubtedly be back facing a hard border on the island of Ireland.

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RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 08:03

Response to the above rte thread

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
Interesting thread on U.K. efforts to barter softer implementation of NI protocol in exchange for expedited NI truck passage on “land bridge” - the bit of the machine that believes a deal is possible is/was working hard on it.

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Whenwillow · 07/09/2020 08:05

I really appreciate these threads. Thank you so much for keeping it real.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 08:11

And original peter foster thread from last night

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
NEW: 🚨🚨🚨🇬🇧🇪🇺🚨🚨🚨UK planning legislation to override key parts of #brexit withdrawal treaty and Northern Ireland protocol - a potentially HUGE move in negotiations; major ructions in Whitehall - my latest via @FT

Per three sources with knowledge of plans the UK Internal Market bill (due on Weds) and this autumn's Finance Bill will contain clauses that “eliminate the legal force of parts of the withdrawal agreement”. The EU are unlikely to like this - which I guess is the point /2

^Given @MichelBarnier
insistence on the "precise implementation" of the Withdrawal Agreement, the decision to legislate in a way that dilutes those obligations - on State Aid, export summary declarations and tariffs - is not likely to go down well with the EU /3^

A person familiar with the plans said they would “clearly and consciously” undermine the agreement on Northern Ireland that Boris Johnson signed last October - but which in the light of the diamond-hard Brexit he's negotiating, now looks very difficult. /4

A second person familiar with the plans said they were a "blunt instrument" that would directly "set up UK law in opposition with obligations under the withdrawal agreement, and in full cognisance that this will breach international law.” /5

A lot of Whitehall is deeply uncomfortable with this approach.

Foreign Office not sure how it can criticise China for not meeting international obligation if UK is paring back obligations of a Treaty it signed in less than a year ago.

Or help Int Trade dept sign deals /6

Brexiters - who have been calling on BorisJohnson to ditch the Withdrawal Agreement - will like this move.

And in a 'no deal' scenario, where the UK seeks untrammeled sovereignty, it has a powerful logic. /7

The problem is that @BorisJohnson promised to remove the UK from the EU "whole and entire" - but it has become clear that his Northern Irish 'frontstop' does not do that to the satisfaction of Brexiters.

See this @CentreBrexit report: /8
t.co/sa31PCgDLu

The biggest problem is Article 10 - which says that Northern Ireland must follow EU state aid rules AND that EU law (Annex 5) shall apply to the United Kingdom (and not just in respect of Northern Ireland. /9

For Brexiters that creates a potential huge trojan horse for Brussels to reach back into UK policy even in the event of a "clean-break" not deal - the UK Govt would have to notify Brussels of S.Aid decision that impacted companies in NI. /10

Sources say that UK Internal Market Bill will contain "notwithstanding clauses" - i'e 'notwithstanding our obligations under the protocol' define in a far narrower way what the Northern Irish Protocol means on state aid and unfettered access for NI trade to GB. /11

As jamesrwebber of Shearman & Sterling tells me, this would effectively work to supersede elements of the Protocol, and define its scope more narrowly in legal terms. /12

^The plan - which I understand has been backed personally by DavidGHFrost
would “clearly and consciously” undermine the Protocol....which both sides were working hard to implement. The move divided Whitehall at the highest levels. /13^

A goverment said it was “working hard to resolve outstanding issues” with the Northern Ireland protocol in good faith. But added: “As a responsible government, we are considering fall-back options in the event this is not achieved to ensure the communities of NI are protected”/14

There are those who believe passionately that - in a deal scenario - the NI Protocol can still be made to work, but the harder the #Brexit that is being negotiated, the harder that becomes. /15

Recall that the BorisJohnson 'frontstop' was negotiated with the Political Declaration along side it - a declaration that talked about a State Aid regime, a level playing field between both sides and a comprehensive FTA. All of that now looks very distant /16

So if we really are heading for 'no deal', a free hand on State Aid and sovereignty is the priority above all else - then it is hard to see how this government could live with Protocol as it stands /17

Is this a gambit? A move to try and force the EU to re-write the protocol or - if not - have a hands-free 'no deal' all the same.

I've been doing this long enough (think back to Oct 2019) not to make foolhardy predictions....we'll have to see. /18

How the EU reacts will be interesting. It may depend just how brazenly the legislation cuts across the Protocol.

MichelBarnier has been determinedly calm these last few months - he may remain so. Wait and see how it plays out. I don't know. /19

But this does feel to those familiar with the plans like a major move by a govt increasingly resigned to a 'no deal' or 'Australian' exit - and one that risks calling into question the reputation of the UK as a country that negotiates in good faith. Let's see. ENDS

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RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 08:16

And this seems to be the argument being made in defence

David C Bannerman @DCBMEP
It seems to me that if the EU acts unreasonably in blocking a free trade agreement, as it is currently, then it is in direct breach of the Withdrawal Agreement, so they shouldn’t complain if that WA is reformed - and our payout withheld.

Sigh

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RHTawneyonabus · 07/09/2020 08:20

I still thought there were some depths to which this Govt would not sink. But I was wrong. We are basically a failed state now