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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

OP posts:
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GeistohneGrenzen · 12/09/2020 10:26

Darker's choice of nickname triggered me to remember the quote from Chesterton, part of which was used by Trevor Huddlestone as title and quote for his book on Apartheid in 1956....

"I tell you naught for your comfort,
Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher".

Sostenueto · 12/09/2020 10:36

Sorry but BJ will still be there next year. He has vast majority. Nothing from opposition will get through HoC. No there won't be a massive backlash about breaking International law because the Tories value their nice well paid jobs, their perks, their power and they are all going to make a lotta lolly over a no deal Brexit.
There is no accountability there is nothing Joe public can do till next election.

SunnyUplandsOhNoTurnipSoup · 12/09/2020 10:56

Optimism is in short supply at the moment. The House of Lords can't vote down manifesto commitments but voting against the bill upholds the WA which as we know was front and centre of the 2019 election and the Con. Manifesto. Let's hope the numbers are there and the latest appointments mean Beefy doesn't tip the balance.
These threads have included suggestions that Johnson will resign because he is is still Ill (I hear a Smith's song coming on) and Cumming's father in law blathering to a journalist. It's just how soon. Can't see it happening before 31 December. Where on earth will we be by then? A long winter ahead...

Sostenueto · 12/09/2020 11:08

Ofqual renaging on a promise

schoolsweek.co.uk/ofqual-backs-out-of-promise-to-publish-exams-communications/

Mistigri · 12/09/2020 11:09

This is very good, from Ian Dunt (and the message is spot on including with regard to this thread: don't fight the haters & culture warriors on their chosen turf).

"For as long as they are in power the Boris Johnson-Dominic Cummings administration will seek to divide us into warring tribes to sustain its electoral coalition.
...

This week's events are the latest iteration of that approach. The clear plan was to present the internal markets bill and accept - even promote - that it would break international law. Labour would then attack the government ... No.10 could get into its safe space - fighting the Europeans abroad and Remainers at home.

This much was obvious from Johnson's visible befuddlement when Labour leader Keir Starmer did not bring the issue up at PMQs. It was a telling moment. Johnson's culture war gun was loaded and he had to fire it, but there was no target to aim at. And there are lessons to learn there. Specifically: when to fight the culture war, who should fight it, where we fight it and how we fight it."

Mistigri · 12/09/2020 11:13

This is Dunt's conclusion, with which I agree wholeheartedly:

"The basic principle of breaking international law is a key motivator to many of us. It galvanises those who believe in a rules-based international system. But to many voters that argument will not have force. What will have force is the notion of competence, an area where the government is already very weak."

Tl;dr: Starmer is playing smart politics and not fighting battles he can't win (Brexit) but getting his ducks in a row on the issues where the government has a natural disadvantage (implementing policy competently).

Mistigri · 12/09/2020 11:14

Link for the quotes in my previous posts:

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2020/09/11/week-in-review-getting-smart-about-the-culture-war

Darker · 12/09/2020 11:35

The language Johnson is using is inflammatory - talking about a 'blockade' in the Irish Sea.

I dunno. I justcan't see where this isgoing to end.

I miss the days of peaceful marching, with my blue, starry flag, loving the witty placards.

Sostenueto · 12/09/2020 11:42

I agree totally with that article mustgirl

Mistigri · 12/09/2020 11:56

The language Johnson is using is inflammatory

This is obviously intentional. He wants to make this a culture war because he thinks that's a battle he thinks he can win.

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:07

Pasted in full because ... well just because ...

www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/op-ed-goodbye-britain-uk-to-be-a-failed-state-or-non-existent/article/577803

Op-Ed: Goodbye Britain — UK to be a failed state, or non-existent?

You can only use the word “deranged” so many times. The UK leaving the world’s biggest trading bloc was always imbecilic. Add the bungled COVID problems. Now, the UK is happily explaining how it will break international law.

Berlin - The uproar in Europe regarding the reneging on the Northern Ireland border provisions of the withdrawal agreement is a hurricane force. The EU is threatening to take direct legal action against the UK.

It goes without saying that any future negotiations with the EU are already crippled, thanks to this stunning gaffe by Johnson’s cohort of clowns. Why negotiate with anyone who’ll simply ignore the terms of any agreement when it suits them?

No wonder a poster from Belgium said yesterday on you tube Fuck Off were sick of you

The Northern Ireland land border is the only land border with the EU and the UK. The UK proposes to “disapply” (it’s barely even a real word) rules on movement of goods over the border. This is the effectively creating a law that they won’t enforce rules for whatever reason.

So the vital final negotiations are effectively over, if the UK doesn’t address EU objections to this blatant breach of an existing agreement.

That means no deal with the EU.

• No deal with the EU means WTO rules. That includes tariffs customs checks, and massive delays in movement of goods between the UK and EU. It’ll cost billions.

• These checks will cost time and money, a lot of both, in fact. It’s inefficiency incarnate.

• The UK has added some interest to the movement of goods by not having any system in place to check goods, process movements, or anything else.

Even basic traffic is a problem. Huge lorry parks are being constructed in Kent to manage the streams of goods. These parks also don’t have a system for monitoring movements. A digital system is proposed, but doesn’t yet exist.

To say this situation has been mismanaged would be like saying the Pacific ocean is slightly moist. Nothing at all has been done right, on any level. In any other country, except possibly the United States, this level of total insular incompetence would be unthinkable. In the UK, it’s normal.

Add to this the insanity of actually trying to pass a law to avoid international treaty obligations, and it’s pretty much game over for Brexit as any credible process. The UK currently has no trade agreements in place anywhere in the world, and this is the message they’re sending?

…Now the bad news for the UK

Let’s start with the basics:

• The UK imports a lot of goods from the EU. The UK is effectively dependent on the EU for food, medicine, and a lot of business in the form of services. With added delays, customs, tariffs, and more, some EU trade may simply cease, both ways.

• UK farmers will no longer receive EU subsidies, so food production will be under serious financial pressure. Some producers may simply shut down.

• The medicine problem is equally bad. Goods may cost significantly more, be delayed in transit, or simply become inaccessible due to this bizarre situation.

• UK businesses have been confronted with an exploding jigsaw puzzle of future issues, and little information at all about what will actually happen, or what they’re supposed to do. Some UK companies say they’re prepared, but the vast majority don’t believe they are. The uncertainty and lack of direction is almost universal. (The lack of any form of actual leadership is roughly the same as the lack of both these essentials.)

• The COVID-19 pandemic has created a huge hole in revenue due to business shutdowns. The pandemic may still be in full force when the UK leaves the EU on 1 January 2021.

• If trade issues aren’t clarified by then, business shutdowns may increase dramatically.

• If businesses shut, revenue and employment are in serious trouble. The UK has been borrowing heavily, and a shrunken revenue base can’t manage the same levels of debt.

Scotland to leave the UK? Very likely.

The Scottish nationalists aren’t just talking about a new independence referendum. It will happen. They’re furious. The Scots don’t want to sink between the waves singing “Rule Britannia” as the Brexit disaster strikes.

The Scots also have many very serious issues including and beyond Brexit:

• Devolution of powers. The Scots say Westminster is taking their rights to govern Scotland.

• The effect of Brexit on the Scottish economy, which could be even worse than in England.

• Many longstanding disputes between Edinburgh and London over domestic rules, laws, equity in revenue, etc.

• Those in favour of an independence referendum are now in the majority. The UK could effectively cease to exist.

It’s not just a “failed” state we’re looking at here. We’re looking at a state which is effectively making it impossible for itself to exist.

Boris

Boris Johnson is unusual in British history over the last 2000 years. Very few people could become the political leader of a country and then destroy it so completely without an actual war. It takes a unique individual to achieve such a fustercluck of absolute national disasters in just a year or so and look so pleased about it.

From Empire to pitiful remnant, from the madness of World War 1 to the decade or so of rationing that followed World War 2 to mindlessly destructive Thatcherism, it’s all been downhill for Britain.

Then came Boris.

So far:

• COVID 19: The UK has the worst death rate in Europe, by far.

• Brexit: Fiction disguised as policy disguised as sovereignty disguised as patriotism disguised as finding other people to blame for the mess.

• Trade: There’s a very large hole where British trade used to be. There will be a very large hole until this mess is cleared up.

• Revenue: Massive debts piling up, revenue base collapsing. What can you spend when you don’t have money?

• Jobs: How, with an economy in multiple train wrecks at the same time?

• Dominic Cummings: Who’s Cummings to anybody, and why? What’s he doing there? Who’s running Britain, Johnson or Cummings? Nobody has ever elected Cummings to any post at all, have they? Is it “Prime Minister Cummings”, yes or no, Boris?

Failed state

The UK is now at real risk of non-existence, financially, fiscally, economically, and socially. Businesses are at serious risk of being in a legal vacuum thanks to the lack of trade agreements. Even the most insular of UK businesses, like Lloyds, will be impacted by the services issues with the EU.

The pound will be hit very hard by Brexit, as will pound-based assets, simply because the economy will be in utter chaos. The FTSE could implode, if the worst case scenarios are even approximately accurate. The UK middle class could vanish like the US middle class in 2008. The “upper” class won’t do much better if at all, having much more to lose.

Yes, someone will have to come along and clean up the mess. Meanwhile, a generation or so could be quite literally left begging. More likely, mass emigration will follow. The end is in sight, and it’s uglier than anyone could possibly have imagined.

Goodbye, Britain. There’ll always be an England, a Scotland, and a Wales, but not in those tiny little minds.

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:08

www.rte.ie/news/2020/0912/1164757-johnson-brexit/

rte.ie
Johnson warns Brussels could 'carve up' the UK
5-6 minutes

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said his controversial legislation to override parts of his Brexit deal is needed to end EU threats to install a "blockade" in the Irish Sea.

He claimed the EU could "carve up" the UK and "seriously endanger peace and stability" in Northern Ireland if Conservative MPs block his bill.

Mr Johnson is working to quell a plan to amend the legislation from senior Tories who are worried that it could break international law by flouting the Withdrawal Agreement.

The EU criticised the plan as a serious breach of trust that jeopardises peace in Northern Ireland and has threatened legal action if ministers do not alter the UK Internal Market Bill by the end of the month.

But Mr Johnson argued it is "crucial for peace and for the Union itself" and said voting it down would reduce the chances of a trade deal with the EU.

Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove said the UK government is acting "within the rule of law" despite the Northern Ireland Secretary admitting the Brexit Bill would breach international law.

He told Sky News: "The legal position was made clear by the Attorney General: We are operating within the rule of law.

"It is the case, however, that we do need to take insurance policies."

Latest Brexit stories

Writing in the Telegraph, Mr Johnson said the EU would use an "extreme interpretation" of the Northern Ireland Protocol to impose "a full-scale trade border down the Irish sea" that could stop the transport of food from Britain to Northern Ireland.

"I have to say that we never seriously believed that the EU would be willing to use a treaty, negotiated in good faith, to blockade one part of the UK, to cut it off; or that they would actually threaten to destroy the economic and territorial integrity of the UK," he added.

Mr Johnson said that "in the last few weeks" he learned his negotiators had discovered there "may be a serious misunderstanding about the terms" of the Withdrawal Agreement he signed in October.

He argued it was agreed during "torrid" days with the deadline for a deal fast approaching while "negotiating with one hand tied behind our back" because Parliament blocked a no-deal.

"If we fail to pass this Bill, or if we weaken its protections, then we will in fact reduce the chances of getting that Canada-style deal," he wrote.

"Let's remove this danger to the very fabric of the United Kingdom. Let's make the EU take their threats off the table. And let's get this Bill through, back up our negotiators, and protect our country."

Both Ireland and the EU, however, have warned that Mr Johnson's plans pose a serious risk to the peace process rather than protecting the Good Friday Agreement.

Mr Johnson held a conference call with around 250 MPs yesterday to try and drum up support for the bill, and warned them against a return to the "miserable, squabbling days of last autumn".

But during the call in which there were connection issues and no questions taken by Mr Johnson further fall-out emerged from the EU.

Leaders in the European Parliament said they would "under no circumstances ratify" any trade deal reached if "UK authorities breach or threaten to breach" the Withdrawal Agreement.

Mr Johnson appeared not to have ended the disquiet within his party during the call, with senior backbencher Bob Neill saying he was not reassured by the speech.

Mr Neill, who chairs the Commons Justice Committee and is tabling an amendment to the bill which he says would impose a "parliamentary lock" on any changes to the Withdrawal Agreement, said he still contends it contains "objectionable" elements.

"I believe it is potentially a harmful act for this country, it would damage our reputation and I think it will make it harder to strike trade deals going forward," he told Channel 4 News.

Other Tory MPs have also criticised the bill.

Unamended I cannot support this Bill.

Let's secure Brexit-but remember what we stand for.
Already this Bill is damaging brand UK, diminishing our role-model status as defender of global standards. As we go to the wire let’s see more British statecraft-less Nixonian Madman Theory pic.twitter.com/pD5Sl55cC6
— Tobias Ellwood MP (<strong>@Tobias</strong>_Ellwood) September 12, 2020

Amid the worsening atmosphere between London and Brussels, it emerged the EU had even raised the prospect that it could block exports of animal products from the UK once the current Brexit transition period comes to a close at the end of the year.

In a statement following the latest round of talks on Thursday, the EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier said there were "many uncertainties" about the UK's animal hygiene regime.

He said "more clarity" was needed if Britain was to receive the "third-country listing" entitling it to export animal products to the EU.

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:11

The language Johnson is using is inflammatory - talking about a 'blockade' in the Irish Sea.

Last year it was a bridge.

Next year it will be a bouquet .

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2020 12:14

It's Priti Patel and Crispin Blunt who have in the past talked of using Ireland as a hostage
and starving them out

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2020 12:16

Evn if Brexiters don't give a fuck about international law, it's such stupidity:

wtf trying to force someone - much more powerful - into a new trade deal by breaking the last deal you signed with them just months ago 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:17

I just can't see where this is going to end.

Let's hope - but it's dimming - that it isn't with bombs on the mainland again. I'd be jolly cross if I survived the 70s in London only to cop it in the sequel.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2020 12:19

re not engaging in culture war:

The SNP are not under the same constraints as Starmer, no need to keep English nationalists on side,
so Joanna Cherry & others may well decide to bring legal action against the govt, as last Autumn.

possibly will wait until the HoL vote

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:22

Anyone ever read "Sarum" by Edward Rutherford ? One line in the entire book has stayed with me over 30 years, and that was when the descendants of one of the families the book follows that had emigrated to the US returns to the UK during WW2 and is rich compared to the native Britons who suddenly realise at the heart of it

The British Empire is rotten

A Grand Challenges lecture by Professor Danny Dorling, the University of Oxford. From Brexit the British may learn a great deal about themselves as a result of having voted to 'Leave'.

Not least that Britain, and even Brexit, has its roots in the British Empire. Traditionally British Geography, a subject that was partly born in its current form in Britain due to Empire, has not been very good at explaining what the Empire was and why it mattered so much to Britain. Brexit may well be the point at which the English, in particular, finally learn about the importance of geography. Geography is central to Brexit - from the Irish border through to the modern day priorities of India. In hindsight, living with the highest rate of income inequality in Europe was arguably the real problem for the British, rather than being in the EU per se. The source of British woes was not immigrants or some perceived lack of sovereignty, but of their own making, and possibly (at least in part) an outcome of having so recently been at the heart of the largest empire the world has ever known.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2020 12:23

re worst COVID death rate:

Belgium has an even worse death rate, because they are even more densely populated than the UK
and obviously have massive international connections and land borders

GB should have had great advantages in an epidemic, being an island with a far more limited number of entry points and being some weeks behind epidemic spread on the continent, so with warnings of what is to come

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2020 12:25

iirc the UK contained both the richest area in the EU - in the City of London - plus the 9 poorest areas

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:26

GB should have had great advantages in an epidemic, being an island with a far more limited number of entry points and being some weeks behind epidemic spread on the continent, so with warnings of what is to come

Not with the Bransons of this world desperate to keep us flying ...

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2020 12:26

9 of the 10 poorest areas

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2020 12:29

Germany has 9 land borders
I've no idea how many millions cross by car, within and outside the holiday season, but I suspect all the airlines together don't move as many Germans acros borders as cars & trains do

it's not possible to effectively close down land borders - as we've seen in NI -
but govt has at least the power to shut down airlines; it just doesn't want to

DGRossetti · 12/09/2020 12:31

It's impossible not to look at the global COVID figures and deduce it's a complete failure of capitalism, really.

SabrinaThwaite · 12/09/2020 12:41

Tom Cockcroft on Twitter (at Bar Council meeting)

Suella Braverman says she can't explain why she turned to prominent leave activists for advice re internal market bill rather than independent members of the AG panel

I think everyone else can explain though.