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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

OP posts:
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Sostenueto · 09/09/2020 12:29

Well done Starmer for not asking anything about Brexit!👍 Really funny when Boris at end started to go on about Brexit!Grin

Sostenueto · 09/09/2020 12:30

Question on living wage and won't answer whether it will be frozen. Bastard! ( Sorry about language)

Darker · 09/09/2020 12:33

Yes, well played by Starmer! BJ comes over as squirmy , defensive and juvenile.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 12:34

(May Video)
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1303303552551604224

BBC Politics@BBCPolitics

"How can the government reassure future international partners that the UK can be trusted to abide by the legal obligations of the agreements it signs?"

asks ex-PM Theresa May

< May is probably being coldly practical:
no government would refuse trade deals with the UK because she illegally deported a few asylum-seekers,
but many would refuse if they think the UK will shaft whole countries instead of just vulnerable individuals >

BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 12:35

VIDEO - BJ saying how wonderful his WA is:

The one he wants to break a few months late

https://twitter.com/jamesrbuk/status/1303242571691569152

BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 12:36

Tory Election Manifesto

Page 3 has this foreward from BJ:

https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative%202019%20Manifesto.pdf

"After three and a half years of procrastination,
we have a great new deal that is ready to go

  • so that we will be finally out of the EU by January 31.
..... With a new Parliament and a sensible majority Government, we can get that deal through in days.

It is oven-ready - and

every single Conservative candidate at this election, all 635 of them, have pledged to vote for this deal as soon as Parliament returns."

BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 12:37

EXPLANATION

BJ apparently got the ERG to vote for the WA on the understanding that he would renege if he didn't get a cake deal

Bernard Jenkin chairman of the ERG.

https://diplomatmagazine.com/westminster-reflections-sir-bernard-jenkin-mp-asks-if-there-is-no-deal-is-that-brexit-done/

“We made clear, however, that this agreement was barely ‘tolerable’ and only voted for it against
assurances given by government:
that it was just a starting point for negotiations;
that it would be superseded by a full FTA [free trade agreement];
and, if needs be, could be repudiated.”

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 12:41

@BigChocFrenzy

EXPLANATION

BJ apparently got the ERG to vote for the WA on the understanding that he would renege if he didn't get a cake deal

Bernard Jenkin chairman of the ERG.

[[https://diplomatmagazine.com/westminster-reflections-sir-bernard-jenkin-mp-asks-if-there-is-no-deal-is-that-brexit-done]]/

“We made clear, however, that this agreement was barely ‘tolerable’ and only voted for it against
assurances given by government:
that it was just a starting point for negotiations;
that it would be superseded by a full FTA [free trade agreement];
and, if needs be, could be repudiated.”

Was that in the gift of the government to give ?

You'd think MPs would get some sort of induction training when they take their seat. Even if it only consisted of "you sit on this bit and use that bit to queue jump".

Southwestten · 09/09/2020 12:47

@yoikes

I would recommend reading about the Mitfords to anyone wondering what the upper classes thought about Hitler.
So the Mitfords represent the entire upper classes? Tom Mitford, brother of the sisters, was killed fighting in the war.
Southwestten · 09/09/2020 12:48

Peregrina - what do I think of the present government? Not a lot to be honest.

yoikes · 09/09/2020 12:54

I am well aware of that.
Which is why I suggest it as good reading material about the period.
It shows the huge split in society and the damage caused by those who hold facist/right wing views and those who do not.
Nuance is everything after all....

Peregrina · 09/09/2020 12:57

What do I think of the present Government? They are a bunch of toadies led by a liar. The better ones were chased out of the party last year.

One of the Mitford sisters was a communist but on the whole, the Cambridge spies excepted, I haven't gained an impression that this was a majority view of the upper classes.

Why are you so keen to defend people Southwestern? What do you think of a Government which wants to break international law, deliberately it seems, not by accident?

yoikes · 09/09/2020 12:59

They really are a horrifyingly fascinating family...
Mostly desperately unhappy but fascinating.
Their mother was a very odd person. Anti vaxxer when it wasn't trendy to be so, massive anti semite, fully supported Hitler even though her son was killed fighting the Nazis...
Ended her days on a Scottish Island nursing her nazi loving daughter (unity) who shot herself at the outbreak of the war.
Sadly she botched it and spent the rest of her days as an invalid and died in great pain some years later from the bullet still lodged in her fronto temporal lobe.

Southwestten · 09/09/2020 13:09

Peregrina you’ve already asked me what I think of the government and I’ve answered you.

One of the Mitford sisters was a communist but on the whole, the Cambridge spies excepted, I haven't gained an impression that this was a majority view of the upper classes

Sure, but just because the majority of the upper classes weren’t communists it doesn’t mean they were largely fascists. The key being the word ‘majority’.

Peregrina · 09/09/2020 13:10

The SNP's Ian Blackford, asked why did the prime minister think that he and his friends were above the law

Boris Johnson failed to answer, and waffled about protecting jobs. We shall see as far as the latter goes, but I am not expecting it.

Darker · 09/09/2020 13:12

It felt like Ian Blackford was making a not-very-veiled threat to hold another indy ref if BJ continues on this path.

Peregrina · 09/09/2020 13:14

I asked you a specific question about a Government willingly breaking international law, which you have not answered.

Why are you so desperate to put words into my mouth, which I didn't say? Why are you choosing to ignore words I did - about those who were sickened by what they saw Nazi Germany had done?

yoikes · 09/09/2020 13:16

Nancy - very talented novelist. Life blighted by not being able to go to University (not the done thing to educate girls...) Also by falling for gay/abusive/uninterested men her whole life.
First engagement - ended because he was gay.
Marriage : Peter Rodd. Abusive and treated her badly. 2 mc.
After the war lived in France.
Love of her life: Gaston Pelowski. Kept her hanging on for decades saying he could not marry a divorcee (catholic) then married a divorcee and broke her heart.
Died horribly of bone cancer.
Diana: society beauty. Married into the guiness dynasty. Ran off with Oswald Mosely and left her 2 children.
Lived with Moseley whilst his wife was still alive and had 2 children by him. Spent time in prison during the war (Nancy encouraged the govt to imprison them both)
After the war lived in France.
Never stopped supporting Hitler/hating Jews.
Dreadful woman.
Pam : family thought her "slow"
Married and lived a country life.
Tom: killed in WW2 fighting the Nazis.
Unity: as above. Huge Nazi fan. Died of self inflicted gsw.
Debo: Married 2nd son of Duke of Devonshire. 1st son killed in WW2. Became Duchess of Devonshire and is widely credited with saving Chatsworth.
Jessica: ran off to Spain to marry a distant cousin. Worked for red Cross during Spanish civil War.
Identified as a communist.
Ended up in America and wrote books.

I think its clear from the memiors they wrote and the many many biographies that huge swathes of the upper class really didn't see an issue with the Nazis.

Until the blitz. Then feelings changed. Then their love ones started getting killed. All got a bit real.

Nancy's bio on the sun King is an excellent read.

Emilyontmoor · 09/09/2020 13:19

Can we do a crowdfunder to get Farage to the Falklands? Maybe tell him its overrun with boat people.... Have the families of those who died at Goose Green and the other battle sites and at sea whose bodies lie on the Falklands, not suffered enough as a result of Thatcher’s diplomats giving Argentina reason to think that Britain was no longer much bothered......

prettybird · 09/09/2020 13:23

@Darker

It felt like Ian Blackford was making a not-very-veiled threat to hold another indy ref if BJ continues on this path.
The SNP has already explicitly said that it will be campaigning to hold Indyref2 in next year's Holyrood elections. Confused

Another SNP victory, this time with Infyref2 explicitly one the manifesto, or even just an Indy supporting majority with the Scottish Greens (especially if they too include Indyref2 in their manifesto) would put BJ in breach of on dodgy ground under the UN article regarding the right to self-determination/de-colonisation.

But pah - international law and being a signatory to the UN Charter Hmm Who gives a stuff? ShockAngry

SabrinaThwaite · 09/09/2020 13:23

Tom Mitford, brother of the sisters, was killed fighting in the war.

But not fighting against the Germans though?

Think you'll also find that he was fairly enthusiastic in his support for his brother-in-law Moseley and was a member of the British Union of Fascists.

Darker · 09/09/2020 13:26

@Emilyontmoor

Can we do a crowdfunder to get Farage to the Falklands? Maybe tell him its overrun with boat people.... Have the families of those who died at Goose Green and the other battle sites and at sea whose bodies lie on the Falklands, not suffered enough as a result of Thatcher’s diplomats giving Argentina reason to think that Britain was no longer much bothered......
This is entirely fair. I retract.

There must be an uninhabited island somewhere we can lure him to.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 13:28

With conscription in WW2, for upper class fascists it was a choice of going to jail or "volunteering" to be an officer to avoid the social horror of serving in the other ranks with the plebs

And of course, once war started, many of those who sympathised with Hitler when it was a case of invading other countries and murdering Jewish people,
would fight when their own country was attacked, even if they didn't change their personal support for fascism and anti-semitism in the UK

Emilyontmoor · 09/09/2020 13:32

Southwestton It has already been highlighted to you that there were many others who sympathised with Hitler and even travelled to Germany to witness Hitler’s rallies. Yet another Lord for you, alongside Mosley, Cain, and Rothermere, Lord Londonderry, Cabinet Minister, openly supported the Nazis. Mitford is the well know end of a large wedge of influential establishment figures who openly supported the Nazis. Obviously since there was not a referendum we will never know how a campaign led by a charismatic leader and gifted orator like Mosley supported by the Daily Mail might have swung the numbers, who knows, it might have gone 52 /48....

BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 13:41

The govt has now published the UK internal market bill

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-01/0177/20177.pdf

"The following have effect notwithstanding any relevant international or domestic law with which they may be incompatible or inconsistent ...."

This is the confirmation that some of the provisions of the bill deliberately break an international treaty

No modern UK government has been so blatant as to openly announce it will break the law,
certainly not a treaty with other countries,
as distinct from law-breaking when ignoring the rights of some vulnerable individuals

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