Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

[RedToothBrush]

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

I'm not for a moment suggesting the Queen would do anything other than sign what she's told to sign. I'm fully aware that she's just a figurehead. However, much was made of how the prorogation fiasco embarrassed the Queen and this resonated with public opinion. It could gain some traction now.

Will it gain traction? So far almost nothing has - to mix metaphors, I keep waiting for the straw which will break the camels back, but it hasn't happened yet.

Schools are closing so kids are home
but a kickabout in the park with friends is now illegal

@WorriedMutha

I'm not for a moment suggesting the Queen would do anything other than sign what she's told to sign. I'm fully aware that she's just a figurehead. However, much was made of how the prorogation fiasco embarrassed the Queen and this resonated with public opinion. It could gain some traction now.

In hindsight, we'll see prorogation as the stalking horse that allowed this.

The Queen is a busted flush. And those of us that would have had a republic in the 80s have been silenced everytime by this absolute wank about "special powers" as if she's a Jedi ninja.

The funniest thing is we've ended up being subjects in a Monarchy with a Monarch who can't do a thing. It's Kafkaesque in a way.

If Charles I is looking down now, he'd be pissing his pants. We had a civil war that killed getting on for 10% of the country for fuck all. The posh boy aristocracy won out eventually. Fuck the peasants.

I also think some of our lawyer MPs are going to find themselves professionally embarassed following the Government into the lobbies. The Law Society has already tweeted some concern about the proposal. David Lammy as shadow justice minister has written to his opposite number. The attorney general, Suella Braverman is pure ERG so she's a lost cause but she's not beyond the Bar Counsel's regulatory reach.

Southwestten What odd posts? There is no shortage of historical evidence that there was an anti Semitic facist movement under Mosley in the U.K. that had support from all sections of British society, and that amongst some parts of the aristocracy most notably the Mitford sister, and the Windsor’s, who actually met Hitler, there was admiration for what he was doing. If it had not had considerable support they could not have marched on Cable Street with tacit establishment support. It was only the unexpected response from the local community and the ensuing “battle” that forced the Police hand.

I am currently researching a friend’s family history whose predecessor was in the fore runner of the SOE who spent time during the 30s undercover in Europe as a British “tourist “ on a bicycle trip observing who from Britain was similarly “touring” Europe taking in Hitler’s rallies along the way. Her intelligence was used to help intern some of them, along with Mosley, who covertly instructed his followers to be COs. It is all there in the MI5 archives at Kew.

In the 60s she took my friend on an extraordinary camping trip across Europe where they met up with her many contacts who had been part of the resistance to facism during the war. They had set up a network known as the King’s route, which stretched to Stalin’s Russia, almost certainly a reference to the possibility that part of Hitlers plans were to set up the Duke of Windsor as a useful fool to take over from his brother, and claim that mandate to rule after invading the U.K.

You do realise that appeasement was the UKs policy towards Hitler right up until it was clear he was going to keep invading more territory?

Of course many people of all classes fought bravely and patriotically in the war but to claim Britain was not deeply divided and antisemitism in particular was not deeply engrained in British society is well to not have studied the accrual history......

@WorriedMutha

I also think some of our lawyer MPs are going to find themselves professionally embarassed following the Government into the lobbies. The Law Society has already tweeted some concern about the proposal. David Lammy as shadow justice minister has written to his opposite number. The attorney general, Suella Braverman is pure ERG so she's a lost cause but she's not beyond the Bar Counsel's regulatory reach.

You know when you see the wrecking ball swinging into the building ? Do you really think the operators give a shit about the family photos on the mantelpiece ?

We all cited pastor Neimoller, and nobody listened.

Where we're going, you won't need a Bar Council.

@DGR. We can only dream of emerging from this dystopian nightmare as a Republic but right now I would just settle for waking up in a democracy. I've never believed there would be an appetite for republicanism in the Queen's lifetime. She enjoys huge personal popularity. I doubt Charles and his successors will play as good a hand.

Southwest-ten What odd posts? There is no shortage of historical evidence that there was an anti Semitic facist movement under Mosley in the U.K. that had support from all sections of British society

Emily Indeed but I don’t believe Peregrina’s assertion that It was ‘most’ of the upper classes.
Unless of course she has some evidence that it was.

[quote WorriedMutha]@DGR. We can only dream of emerging from this dystopian nightmare as a Republic but right now I would just settle for waking up in a democracy. I've never believed there would be an appetite for republicanism in the Queen's lifetime. She enjoys huge personal popularity. I doubt Charles and his successors will play as good a hand.[/quote]
If Private Eye is right (and let's put it this way, it's not been wrong so far) then Her Madge and Chuck don't give a toss about us as long as their patch of sky is kept nice. As a pretty huge landlord, keeping the proles in line suits King Charles III down to the ground.

Could I add that my late DF was a CO during the War but not a closet fascist. He was a Quaker. In later life he wondered whether that was the right stance, but that is how his conscience dictated at the time.

@Southwestten

Southwest-ten What odd posts? There is no shortage of historical evidence that there was an anti Semitic facist movement under Mosley in the U.K. that had support from all sections of British society

Emily Indeed but I don’t believe Peregrina’s assertion that It was ‘most’ of the upper classes.
Unless of course she has some evidence that it was.

I think the picture of Rothermere shaking Hitlers hand, and the Daily Mail headline "Hurrah for the blackshirts !" are all anyone needs to know about the British class divisions on fascism. While Orwell and others were putting their lives on the line to fight fascism in Spain.

Of course no surprise that Brexiteers might be trying to reduce the historic narrative to one of Britain good, Germany bad, we won because we are exceptional. As opposed to Britain being deeply decided between those who responded to the right wing ideology sweeping Europe and those who resisted it....

I would recommend reading about the Mitfords to anyone wondering what the upper classes thought about Hitler.

@yoikes

I would recommend reading about the Mitfords to anyone wondering what the upper classes thought about Hitler.

It's sobering to recall Stephen Fry met Diana Mosely. Who had met Hitler. ( Perfectly charming man )

In other news Trump has just been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize...

Southwestern. Why exactly are you raking this over? You have taken my post out of context, and tried to put words in my mouth. I think you have been given enough evidence that there was a significant body of people who did support fascism. Was this most? Or many? Or have we got to be corrector than correct and only name the known fascists, namely the Duke of Windsor and Mosley because the evidence for them is too clear cut to deny?

I pointed out that you didn't quote my comment about those who did object or those who liberated the camps and how sickened they were. Nor did you bother to quote BigChocs posts which followed mine, which I suggest you go back and read.

But since that is an old post, which you had chance to debate at the time, let us return to events now. What do you think of a Government which is happy to break international treaties? Perhaps you would like to nail your colours to the mast here.

@Darker

In other news Trump has just been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize...

By the same guy that nominated him in 2018 for solving the North Korea nuclear tensions.

Ronald Nall-Cain, aka Baron Brocket, is a fairly typical example of your upper-class, Conservative MP and Nazi sympathiser (and general all-round top-notch arsehole).

The nobel peace prize nominations and winners have long included some very controversial figures.

Aung San Suu Kyi for example.

After reading all of these threads I have realised how bad my history knowledge is. (I need to up my reading. If anyone has any recommendations I would be very grateful.

On another note- after Bexit we will be be Inna weakened position, would the Falklands be at risk?

On another note- after Bexit we will be be Inna weakened position, would the Falklands be at risk?

Well if the UK decides to abandon the concept of international law then yes. Although the idea of Farage sailing over there to defend them does have satirical currency.

Isn't status of the Falklands determined by International Law?

Heh Heh, pfeffel prepared answers to questions he didn't get so squeezed them all into an irrelevant answer to starmer's last question.

Ponders.... Can we do a crowdfunder to get Farage to the Falklands? Maybe tell him its overrun with boat people....