Gove: "Post-Brexit talks: UK prepared to walk away in June if no progress"

[Miljea]

BBC News

Is this the Brexit you voted for, Leavers??

Seriously? Threatening the EU?

Text: "The UK has warned the EU it will walk away from trade talks in June unless there is a "broad outline" of a deal.

Michael Gove told MPs the UK wanted to strike a "comprehensive free trade agreement" in 10 months.

But the government would not accept any alignment with EU laws as the EU is demanding, with Mr Gove adding: "We will not trade away our sovereignty."

The EU has already set out its priorities ahead of the formal start of the talks on Monday."

One would almost think No Deal was precisely what we're heading for....

Maybe someone will come from the other side and tell us, in italics why this is great news.

Jasjas,

The EEC and EU are completely different beasts. I remember (just) my parents voting to join the ECSC in the 1970s.

The EU project is a federation. Nothing else makes sense. Free trade and movement of people just does not work without a common currency, tax rate and, ultimately, a federal government. This is the essential dishonesty of the remainer argument, that the status quo will continue indefinitely. The EU will either fall apart via a Euro crisis (my bet) or federate. Corona virus will push Italy into recession (probably has already) leading to a BTP crisis. Will the Germans shift massive fines to Italy? We shall see.

And will the Baltics being in the EU stop Russia playing power games there? Nope. The Baltic’s best protection is, as ever, the NATO nuclear umbrella.

Massive funds , not fines! (Although given the EU’s budgetary rules, Italy may get fined!)

"The EU project is a federation."

No it isn't.

It is more like a confederation, if anything.

What shouts out from various posters' contributions, especially people like FUSOI is that UK politics only offers voters a binary choice between Labour, who they feel betrayed by, and Tory, who never have been and never will be a party that cares about the poor, the unemployed, or the 'left behind'.

It makes me wonder why all these Northern voters who complained about lack of investment didn't organise themselves and create a new party that would work for them and which would reflect their wants and needs. Instead of thinking of themselves as disappointed Labour voters who are so desperate that they're willing to give a load of public schoolboys their vote, they could have started a new party. When I see the typical Northern Brexit voter on TV/on the media, the last thing I think is 'that person is a socialist', so why is the Labour party even bothering to try and win them back?

We need a greater choice of parties in this country and then we need PR. It is really not good enough that we have to choose between bad and appalling.

Sorry. This isn't quite on thread topic, is more a response to the old north/south arguments posted here.

Well Boris did for a London with his financial initiatives which we are still paying for. Now he has extended his talents via his large majority offered to him on a plate. Cummings has pushed and helped this hapless PM as he undertakes a task he is totally unfit for. So the expertise of the civil service is trashed and ignored just as those who voted for him in areas of the greatest need will be when the proverbial hits the fan.

BaileysforBreakfast
Its not that simple to get a party up and going as the rebels proved.

The last ones standing were ironically the LD's until just as the tide was turning they joined the US TOO, which basically meant you could just about fit a cigarette paper between them.

As the coalition proved they were much more interested in power than principles. A lot of LD supporters were horrified by Bedroom Tax, VAT rise, benefits freeze, Help To Buy (Profits). They had an opportunity to force an election when the referendum was announced, they choose power for a couple of more years. They would of never got anywhere near the seats if those voters had of known what they would do. But have spent the last years bleting about Democracy, when in reality it only matters when they agree with the result. Its hilarious they are whinging about PR again already.

A lot of people just simply go through the motions or don't bother. The politicians always seem to twist whatever the result is into their desires not what the people intended.

The Brexit vote was different Yes / No, Black White no hiding no messing, but many people knew what would happen.

So when they keep telling you it doesn't matter what you want because we are going to do the opposite and we don't care because you will never vote Tory. It gives people a very hard choice to make, some just did as they were told, some didn't bother voting at all and some did the unthinkable and voted Tory.

The majority of those people only one thing mattered, the rest got ignored and with the Tories there wasn't a lot else to ignore.

The problem Labour has they still aren't listening. Everyone are just raving racists or Cable described them as Knuckle Dragging Racists, neither of which the vast majority of people are not.

Fusoi where is your evidence that Labour isn't listening? Where are your quotes stating that people who voted Brexit are racists? Because that's certainly not what I am hearing.

On the subject of the LD's - I can't say i've missed them at all since the election. They always were a rum lot and, as you pointed out, completely disgraced themselves in coalition.

Larry

If the EU project is a federation, then they've got a strange way of achieving it!
The UK had a list of veto's as long as your arm and even joining the eurozone, isn't enforced.

Even if the EU had evolved into a federal state, we could then have left but now, when/if Brexit turns out to be a disaster, we are stuck with it, there is no going back.

But i do agree that CV19 will change everything, not list FOM and immigration generally, countries are going to become much more appreciative of HCP's they won't be coming here from anywhere, least of all the EU, the UK seems determined to leave anything with European in its title, we aren't even co-operating on CV19 and have just said we'll leave EASA, so say goodbye to Airbus.

Jasjas,

Boris has promised an extra £46 mil for research (itself a joke). The majesty of the EU has secured EUR 47.5 mil (a total joke). These numbers should be in the billions and immediately available.

When push comes to shove we feel enough empathy to share resources nationally. Will Germany be shipping testing kits, ventilators etc to Italy, risking leaving its own population short? We shall see but I am betting not.

This is the major problem with the European project (and, for those running the EU, it is a project). There is no commonality of language, ideas, methodology etc etc,

I trust Asia and the U,S (when it finally gets its thumb out of its arse) to develop the antivirals and, ultimately, vaccine, which will finally vanquish Covid 19. The EU will still be chatting about it and arguing over who will contribute what...

Everyone are just raving racists or Cable described them as Knuckle Dragging Racists, neither of which the vast majority of people are not

3.9m voted for Farage in 2015 and that's when he didn't have a hope in hell of getting into Govt.
His Breaking Point poster was base on a Nazi propaganda poster from the 30's and strangely didn't show any white faces.....
Immigration was the no1 issue for the majority of Brexit voters, acknowledged by Cummings, which is why he focused on Turkey, inc in his little map, Iraq and Syria, the inference being not only are millions of Turks coming to the UK but Syrians and Iraqis too.

Johnson has written some very racist columns for the Telegraph, didn't stop people voting for him, explained away with the excuse "He mis-spoke" FFS!!!

I think the % of people who are racist in this country is far higher than you might think.

Everyone are just raving racists or Cable described them as Knuckle Dragging Racists, neither of which the vast majority of people are not

Ambiguous double negative there...

LittleRootie
"Fusoi where is your evidence that Labour isn't listening? "
Seriously
Still going on about Remain / Rejoin
Still going on about FOM
Still going on about immigration
Abbot actually arguing for low wages.
Will elect a remain / rejoin/ FOM / raving Blairite as leader.
Refuse to accept the reality, far too interested in LGBT etc.

So not much really then.

jasjas1973
""I think the % of people who are racist in this country is far higher than you might think.""
Anybody who voted Brexit was branded a racist, in LP if you mention immigration you are looked on as a racist.
Some have very light definition of racist, its seems you can't say anything about it without being called a racist. Funny a good friend of mine voted Brexit and was labelled a racist by someone in casual conversation because of it. The fact she is white but her ex is black and has 2 children was quite amusing as she is not what I call diplomatic type.

AuldAlliance
mbiguous double negative there...

Aye you got me, lock me throw away the keys, please.

LittleRootie on Labour not listening, this is the line from the Leadership hustings just yesterday.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/keir-starmer-refuses-to-rule-out-backing-campaign-for-uk-to-rejoin-eu-1-6551617

Starmer won't rule out "Rejoin" for 2024, Nandy and Long Bailey suggested they would, but that's only the next GE.

LouiseCollins28

So 2 out of the 3 leadership contenders have def ruled out campaigning to rejoin - ie they have accepted the verdict of the GE - and the third says it is not currently a priority and will be up to future generations (as will everything else) How can that be framed as 'not listening'?

Starmer has a very pragmatic, legally trained bonce - one of the reasons he is so far ahead in the contest - he knows not to commit to yes/no answers like that. He is still being clear that he is currently not campaigning to rejoin. After the next GE, who knows? Who knows after the end of this year what the effect of Brexit will be on the voters?

If anyone is not listening it's Johnson, by playing only to a section of his voters on FOM and trade negotiations, failing to give proper leadership, guidance, clarity on our future outside the EU, he is acting as though the half of the country that didn't want Brexit just don't matter at all.

Anybody who voted Brexit was branded a racist

No they are not, that's rubbish, many brexitiers have long opposed EU membership with deeply held and passionate views, with little mention of immigration ie Steve Baker MP....... i don't inc farage in this, he is just a hypocritical opportunist, like bojo or gove

BUT the irrational debate around immigration ie migrants take our jobs, clog up our schools and hospitals etc doesn't do leavers any credit at all, completely ignoring the monetary and positives aspects they bring to our country, the fact the UK govt hasn't funded public services or provided social housing (for decades) is nothing to do with the EU.

I’m afraid it isn’t from my POV. 2/3 have ruled our campaigning to rejoin before a GE in 2024, that just means that whoever is elected labour leader could enter that election campaigning for rejoin or begin doing so immediately afterwards. Also, one of the “2” Lisa Nandy has today called on translation to be extended because of Coronavirus. I say that’s “bad faith” on from all 3. All it means is ‘we can’t campaign on it now, it’s too soon and will make us unpopular’

Louise

Putting normal stuff on hold until CV19 is under control and vaccine developed, is a very sensible thing to do, cooperation across europe is needed to defeat this virus and arguing about FTA's or Erasmus whilst people are dying and health services across europe are falling to bits is ridiculous and completely inappropriate.

We are all going to have to pool resources on this, so, on this occasion we need to put leave or remain to one side, normal life and argument is about to change.

I’m afraid it isn’t from my POV. 2/3 have ruled our campaigning to rejoin before a GE in 2024, that just means that whoever is elected labour leader could enter that election campaigning for rejoin or begin doing so immediately afterwards

That clearly is a POV, your own biased interpretation, not based on anything that has actually been said.

Leavers want to continue to put the boot into Labour, fearing that a new leader might give a new lease of energy and provide an excellent comparison with the dishonest Johnson Gov for disillusioned voters.

How else should I interpret a commitment from 2 out 3 contenders which only extends as far a general elction in 2024 then? Do you believe that those 3 leadership contenders are signed up, from what they have said, to working deliver successful exit in the long term, should they become Leader?

Do you believe that those 3 leadership contenders are signed up, from what they have said, to working deliver successful exit in the long term, should they become Leader?

It's not up to the leader of the opposition to 'deliver a successful exit', other than in the sense that they try to prevent Johnson from carrying out destructive policies/actions. In the long term, a successful exit may well prove to be closer union again and it would be nonsense to rule it out now, only to have those words thrown back at them later.

How else should I interpret a commitment from 2 out 3 contenders which only extends as far a general elction in 2024 then?
What exactly are you expecting from them? Some statement that they will never campaign to rejoin? Why would they do that when we know nothing about the future in a year's time, never mind 2024?

You suggested that Labour 'are not listening', now you're moving the goalposts around to make it impossible for Labour to do right - no suprise if you're not a Labour voter but it won't wash

Great question! Rootie It is far from “impossible” for Labour to do right from my POV. When one of the 3 candidates becomes Labour leader the next opportunity for them to become PM should be in 2024.

They can “do right” as you put it, in 7 words for me...”Any government I lead will deliver Brexit” would do it.

Assuming they win a GE in 2024 and serve 2 terms as Prime Minister that gets us to 2032 or thearabouts, by which point the medium term impacts of Leaving might just be beginning to be felt and understood.

@LouiseCollins28 are you suggesting it still won't be done by 2024? I thought it had been done already? Why should the opposition suggest they will do something that's finished. That's just weird.

No, sorry perhaps that wasn’t clear. I do think “leaving” will be done by 2024, i.e. we will have left, whether the final state of our new relationship with the EU will be settled by then I’m not so sure. What I think I meant was that I am hoping for is that they won’t try and “undo” Leaving should they form the next Govt in 2024.

My previous post was also a bit unnecessarily harsh on the current Labour candidates as well. I don’t expect them to do as I’ve suggested, I am pretty sure they won’t tbf. Just me giving opinion that this is the stance I would like them to take.

Why should the opposition suggest they will do something that's finished. That's just weird.

It is weird. But it's a good illustration of the dishonesty of tory voters who pretend they want a strong opposition and who lambast Labour for 'not listening' - what they really want is for Labour to be the tory party or, in fact, to be nowhere and just let tories get on with whatever botched and dishonest Brexit they can cobble together.

Johnson campaigned on getting Brexit done, it is his Brexit to deliver. By 2024, whatever state we're in, good or bad, the election will be decided accordingly. In fact, it might not even be 2024, who knows?

I said earlier that Johnson is not listening to half the country, the same would be true of any Labour leader who made the outlandish statement put forward by LouiseCollins.

Why should Labour commit to delivering something that was "oven ready" in December 2019 and occurred on 31/1/20? That's the stupidest thing I've read today, and I've just caught up on twitter.

You people want a one party state. You're not democrats.