How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

I've been reading these threads a long time OP and I think you're caught in a cleft stick. You're a Tory voter who accepts Brexit so you find no common ground with remainers here. You run to the arms of leavers for solace but soon become horrified by their vicious and infantile attitudes and so it goes round and round

Support it, don’t support it

I honestly don’t give a shit

It’s happening

Denying that makes your life harder, not mine

I don't find it makes my life harder personally, I have found a lot of renewed interest and energy from refusing to accept it. Not a question of denying it's about opposing.

Accepting something wrong just because it's happening is just giving up.

I don’t think anyone is denying it will happen. That doesn’t mean you have to support it.

To your original question op, If post Brexit:
-sterling devalues further and everything is more expensive
-foreign investment diminishes
-poverty increases
-intolerance and racism gets worse

Then that’s a measure of its failure. Those are my genuine fears and that’s why I can’t get behind it/support it. What are you hoping for in the way of success?

Nobody is denying that it will happen. But denying that it was a fucking stupid idea to vote Tory when you think Brexit is wrong ... well ...

It’s happening so we need to go with it

It would be a lot easier to go with it , if we knew what the it was

There seems to be confusion here, Bear, as to the difference between supporting Brexit, opposing it, deeming it a really disastrous idea and denying it is even happening.
Many remain supporters on the WM threads opposed Brexit actively, for many, while that was an option. Most pp on there are still opposed to it as an idea now.
But they are lucid enough to have spotted it's happening, while still thinking it's going to go badly, as they are waiting for evidence to the contrary.
At the moment all they can see is Tories contradicting either themselves (Johnson, Javid) or the realities of Brexit (Johnson, Javid, Nigel Adams) or both.

I'm not sure where you see pp denying it's happening, despite stalwart efforts to ensure it's never mentioned by name and we all focus on how a young mother lives her life and carries her baby in a sling on Vancouver Island.
The level of knowledge and debate on WM is pretty impressive, particularly compared to some other threads on the topic and your remark was rude.

I don't see why it matters if a few people don't go with it , we are constantly being told we are in the minority , so any opinion we hold is irrelevant ?
Me refusing to accept its a good idea until I see evidence to the contrary is not refusing to accept it is happening.

Look, it was jas who started the arguing on here by wading in with her oh so original comments saying it’s basically my fault and every other Tory voter that Brexit is happening and the likes of her are entirely without fault

Whatever you believe makes no difference - fault and blame are irrelevant now - it’s happening

You might think it’s a shit idea, so do I, but it’s still happening

I opposed it when there was a chance it might not happen but when it became clear it wasn’t going away and no other party offered a viable solution, I chose the party who were at least going to get on with it

I totally agree that ‘it’ is undefined beyond being able to say we’ve left and that’s the whole point of this thread

So if you want to comment on that, please do. If you just want to pile in and moan about the Tories and why this is going to be a disaster, other threads are available

Bear, if you voted for the Tories shouldn't you be able to define brexit? Measure its success? Nobody who vote for something they didnt understand would they?

@ghost
Elections for most people and most of the time are not single issue votes.
I know a huge amount of people (well maybe not huge - but...) who voted Tory because there tax plans would have left them significantly worse off..... unable to service mortgages..... or have kids with SEN who are in private school because they can't cope in a state school (large classes) and the local LA will provide no support. They make huge sacrifices to pay those fees , but labours manifesto meant they wouldn't be able to contemplate it.
Many viewed labours manifesto as not trying to bring everyone up to a decent level - but a pushing down.

I can't blame those people as they had very real concerns. Yes there kids won't be able to travel seamlessly- but they wanted fundamentals- if a guaranteed good education - rather than being thrown on the scrap heap if life .

So rather than bitching everyone out constantly about voting Tory - how about just try and answer the question.

And {sigh} before you start a personal attack on me for voting Tory - I didn't, never have while I have lived in this country........ but I try and understand from people perspective why they have done ........ because it may help us understand why we are in this situation

The issue is complicated, I think, by the fact that some people, including on these threads, like to brandish the GE results as an argument to show that there is majority support in the UK for Brexit.
That reinforces the theoretical link between voting Tory and voting for Brexit (while simultaneously highlighting how little those people understand about FPTP and election choices more generally).

TBH, Bear, I think if you ask how we'll measure success/failure of Brexit, you have to expect some people to post saying it will be a disaster.
Lots of people do think that and the fact that the current leading lights (and lurking background influences) of the Tory party are now in charge of negotiations doesn't reassure them any, given the level of competence shown thus far.

Mrs, I was addressing the OP who stated they voted Tory to get Brexit done. In which case they should have some idea how brexit can be defined.

Bear Johnsons whole election strategy was to get brexit done, with no actually plan on our future relationship with the EU, be it Human rights, Erasmus, refugee children, Galileo, FOM (in particular science co-op, finance and culture) & lets not forget about healthcare, food sector or fruit pickers!!

He is a bit like those DIY fools you see on TV who rip a wall or roof down with zero idea of how to rebuild it, let alone make it better.

I agree the last 3 years have been wasted but that does not make pursuing Brexit at all costs a good move, its irreversible! We need a plan!!!
Brexit needs to be done properly and that's one reason i couldn't support any revoke policy... a referendum cannot just be ignored, given DC's promises.

You are behaving as if Johnson was about to rejoin EFTA instead of ripping up some 700 plus treaties and laws we have with Europe and the ROW via our former EU membership, he has no plan - perhaps you should start with that?

Look at how he has ignored the Dubs amendment? or his lies over adult social care? "We have a plan ready to go" now its "we'll have a plan within 5 years" can kicking! meanwhile people suffer & die needlessly but not his ilk!

Being critical of Brexit and Johnson is not denying the reality of Brexit but Brexit cannot be forgotten nor can it be forgiven.

I’m not going to bother responding to posts which just attribute blame for everything to the Tories

I’ve made my views very clear - I voted for them because I felt they were the least worst option

Posters who disagree really should question themselves and realise that, despite all the issues the Tories have, many of which are listed here and I don’t disagree with in some cases, still more people chose to support them than the alternative because that’s how bad we felt the alternative was

I think if you ask how we'll measure success/failure of Brexit, you have to expect some people to post saying it will be a disaster.

My question was about how you measure it - Just saying it will be a disaster adds nothing to the discussion

Bear Electorates around the world, both current and historically have voted for some pretty terrible parties, it's not a good argument.

Perhaps you would like to name a few tory policies you agree with and think will benefit the country? specifically those arising from leaving the EU ?

I gave you a few ideas on how it could be measured.

The least worst option arguement doesnt really work when only one party was seriously contemplating no deal. Brexit is the biggest issue this country has faced since WW2 and if done badly will have dire consequences for the social and economically wellbeing of the country. Hoping people forget about brexit or "get over it" isn't going to change that.

jas, ghost I’ve already said I’m not going to continuing to facilitate your constant slagging off of the Tories on this thread

It’s tedious and you have your own thread where that is a primary feature

How do you expect people to measure the success or failures of brexit without mentioning
the tories when the entire thing is being driven by the government?

How do you measure the performance of a football team without mentioning the players or the manager?

I didn’t say you couldn’t mention them, I said I was bored of you continually slagging them off

It achieves nothing

I’ve said multiple times on here that I think we need them to be held to certain criteria and there should be a plan but there isn’t and I can’t change that

I haven't slagged them off merely stated that as they are the elected government they own brexit.

You're now complaining that the Tories don't have a plan despite having voted for them when all they offered was a slogan about getting brexit done. The phrase reap what you sow fits brexit perfectly.

Well there are some obvious things like the EU maybe making new laws that no longer apply to the UK where we think "wouldn't it be great if we had that?"

Nothing to stop UK Parliament enacting any law they fancy from any other country. The UK electorate will be free to vote in parties proposing new laws that the majority want to see in the UK. It's called democracy. If anything, it may make UK political parties and politicians more "in tune" with the electorate - and let's face it, it's because they were out of touch that Brexit happened!

Brexit is the biggest issue this country has faced since WW2

What about joining the EU in the first place. But, wait, we never got a say in that did we? It just happened by stealth over a few decades.