How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

Yes ghost because all Magic Grandpa was offering was a mythical new deal and yet another vote and he wouldn’t even say what he’d support then

Even if you wanted that to happen he then fucked up all chances of being in a position for it to do so by ensuring he had no chance of getting a majority due to his ridiculous unicorn financial policies, not to mention point the mrs raised above

You can’t comprehend why anyone vote Tory. I can’t comprehend why it isn’t obvious that voting Labour was not a viable choice

The fact is more people disagree with you than agree with you about the Tories and about Brexit

You can blame FPTP or people who didn’t vote all you like - it doesn’t matter. The people who could have made a difference didn’t so we have a Tory government and we leave the EU next week

What about joining the EU in the first place. But, wait, we never got a say in that did we?

Pretty sure we did......🤔

People voted for pro EU governments over the decades. Membership wasnt even an issue to most people until Cameron started worrying about UKIP.

I don't think you can complain about the economic policies of other parties when the Tories were threatening no deal and their current brexit plan appears to be just wing it.

I don't think you can complain about the economic policies of other parties when the Tories were threatening no deal and their current brexit plan appears to be just wing it.

Of course I can because, despite me knowing that was the case with the Tories I still thought the alternative was worse

This really is a pointless discussion. You are never going to agree with me so please just discuss the OP. Like I said, you have plenty of support elsewhere if you just want to Tory bash

What do you think would be worse economically than no deal?

You have asked for successes and failures yet admit the Tories have no plan for brexit. How therefore do you measure something that has never been defined beyond slogans?

Ffs - that’s exactly why I asked - because there are currently no defined parameters

And WRT no deal - I personally think it was only ever a bluff anyway

If one of the metrics is costs, then Brexit is not looking good:

Brexit may soon cost the UK more than its combined total of payments to the European Union budget over the past 47 years, Bloomberg Economics found.

www.businessinsider.de/international/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1/?r=US&IR=T

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=business&cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business

No deal may have been a bluff to get a WA but Johnson has started the clock ticking down to December 2020, to extend beyond that is inconceivable (though i suppose if brexit has taught us anything...... ) we'd have no representation in the EU but be subject to any new rules.

By this August we will have threads here on stockpiling and the £ will fall back toward parity, so another uncertain Christmas.

Perhaps you would like to judge johnson on this?

By this August we will have threads here on stockpiling and the £ will fall back toward parity, so another uncertain Christmas.

So you have a crystal ball do you?

I genuinely feel sorry for people who are so negative and pessimistic about something they cannot influence anymore - it must be exhausting

Bear, you or I don't get to set the parameters. Where they detailed in the tory manifesto?

Your care Bear is appreciated ...... why are you continuing to make these personal attacks on me?

People have been writing about stockpiling and the £ has dropped as every single brexit deadline has approached and the talk of no-deal increases.... Johnson has stated he will no-deal rather than extend.....

So, its more than predictable the same will happen toward the back end of this year, esp as talks wont happen until March and an extension has to be requested by July.

If anything, it may make UK political parties and politicians more "in tune" with the electorate - and let's face it, it's because they were out of touch that Brexit happened!

The fact that UK voters were disillusioned with how out of touch UK politicans and parties are and thought voting to leave the EU might be an answer to that is a sign of how badly skewed things and thinking are in the country. And how effective the lies peddled by the gutter press, touted on buses, etc.

And the fact that the UK population then continued to elect individuals like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg shows that there is some way to go before their desire for politicians to be in touch with reality connects with their ability to vote for it.

ghost RTFT and stop relentlessly perusing your own agenda - it’s tired and deeply boring

The whole purpose of the thread is because I know there are no parameters - and yes, I supported that with my vote, for reasons I have explained many many times

That doesn’t mean I can’t ask the question now

And before you say it, I had hoped it would be clearer pre GE but it wasn’t, and it was still better than the opposition were offering

why are you continuing to make these personal attacks on me?

If you think my comments are personal attacks then report me - they’re most certainly not by the way

I’ve already pointed out that it was in fact you who started the downward trend on this thread with your age old Tory bashing comments directed personally at me

Bear you are asking predominantly remain voters to set parameters for something they don't believe in. Not even you believe in brexit beyond "getting it done" (which again cant be clearly defined).

You seem to know why people voted brexit/tory and that remainers like me don't understand it. Why not ask leavers for parameters? Suggest you'll get a million and one different responses.

Bear, if I may say so, you are a funny kind of Remainer! You voted for a party whose main policy was "to get Brexit done" and feel sorry for those who are pessimistic about the country's prospects after Brexit!

I'm not going to castigate you for voting Tory in 2015. Cameron seemed relatively harmless and his offer to appease the kippers with a referendum was fairly low on the radar of most voters. No one could have predicted the clusterfuck ahead. But how can you be even a "resigned" Remainer and have helped to vote in a Johnson govt???

I'm no Tory hater. I have voted for them in a number of past elections at various points in my life when I thought their policies were the best for the country (not the most recent). But ffs. The 2019 election was the last opportunity to stop the madness.

Engage on the points i raised re stockpiling, no-deal, seeing as you accuse me of being pessimistic?

Bear you are asking predominantly remain voters to set parameters for something they don't believe in.

Where have I done that? You don’t have to post on this thread if you don’t want to.

I’m asking that you either post about the topic or go elsewhere

I’m not interested in listening to your or jas’s relentless Tory bashing any further

It’s just goading now - I’ve asked you to stop but you are going on and on

Engage on the points i raised re stockpiling, no-deal, seeing as you accuse me of being pessimistic?

Yes because you stated them as being facts when you cannot possible say that will definitely be the case

I agree that if stockpiling was needed or the pound dropped significantly that they would be indicators that Brexit was not successful

The 2019 election was the last opportunity to stop the madness.

How?

What possible outcome would have stopped Brexit

And when I say possible, I mean what party could actually get a majority to achieve that

Bear, I haven't been bashing any party merely pointing out that the government is now accountable for brexit. This isn't an unreasonable observation.

There is no plan, no parameters you know this so we are back to the unicorn territory of 4 years ago.

Ok i'll give you that (can we be civil now?) they cannot be facts but given the past, they are highly likely outcomes of the Johnson strategy..... as we know it, which is high risk gambling.

I voted to try and achieve another hung Parliament, which could have led to a coalition govt which either would have renegotiated a EFTA style agreement OR a second referendum, with a deal vs remain question.
The opposition should have forced this through last year but they were in total disarray.
Personally, i would have prefered the leave but EFTA senario.

But as you say, this is all water under the bridge, so again i agree, a no-deal outcome will judge brexit as a failure.

So what is your point ghost?

You are not making any great revelations there so what does continually repeating it achieve?

Can we be civil now

Of course 😁

I voted to try and achieve another hung Parliament, which could have led to a coalition govt which either would have renegotiated a EFTA style agreement OR a second referendum, with a deal vs remain question.

I see no point in that whatsoever - we’d had 3 years of fannying around already, a hung parliament would have meant more of the same

Brexit isn’t an issue split across party lines but the votes in parliament were pretty much split that way, hence the deadlock