Westminstenders: The only way forward is up.

[placemats]

A new thread as the other one is getting full. I'm enjoying the post election discussion. Every view is listened to and welcomed.

Brexit is happening, but what kind of Brexit will it be?

New leaderships for both Labour and the LibDems.

Most importantly, will Britain be Great in 2024?

Random - I think I misread your post. I thought you'd lent your vote to the Tories.

Still, it does depend on individual candidates - there are some who are pretty good, I am sure.

Also if this place becomes somewhere that people are not welcome then I am off.

I have had enough of some posters feeling they have more right to be here than others.

It's an open forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

If you don't like it, ignore it.

Honestly, I'm going to try and explain why, Just.

I'm working class from the Midlands.

Today, I've been reading Corbynista 'takes' in the defeat.

Apparently it's because people like me are thick, racist fools. That they are reactionary bastards and vermin who hate the poor, are now responsible for killing the poor, and deserve all they get.

No.

They just didn't like or trust Corbyn.

And, guess what, I didn't, either.

And I'm no racist thicko.

And I resent the fact that the people with those 'takes' clearly see me and my family as some kind of animal that their job is to benevolently farm.

Is it any wonder Labour was given a kicking when you have people like that saying things like that?

The othering, the abuse, the toxicity has to stop.

It's the opposite of persuading people - and, yes, Labour now have to get their act together and persuade people.

This GE showed us that you can't just scare people into voting for you. Especially if you are claiming to be one your side' or 'just like you'.

The electorate just didn't buy it.

There was no ambiguity about the result.

Peregrina no I lost definitely voted Labour with my nose held.

But I am feeling very pissed off with the party at the moment.

I don't think the last few days have convinced me that Labour have any intention in stopping the rot.

also, I’m not here to gloat but I’d like to understand what you and others think you can achieve by continuing to just slag off the Tories.

For example, what exactly would a hung parliament have achieved?

I don’t know why people are talking about victory and defeat.

The only victory here is Pyrrhic. Everybody loses.

Random I am so with you.

It’s not a question of right Random. I thought being quite deliberately goady was “against the spirit”. I’ll happily debate with anyone but that isn’t why they’re here.

What is the UK's definition of "Working Class" please.

Apparently it's because people like me are thick...

No, it's because you are a victim of False Consciousness who unlike the wise and insightful ones, does not know what is good for you:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness

Cendrillon has made some valid points today.

And how we would be if results had been different on thursday?

No also, you’re just trying to silence anyone with differing views.

You might want to remain in an echo chamber but it’s not terribly helpful

We have 5 years of the Tories and we are leaving the EU

Why not just try and make the best of it?

Whilst I do not understand her / Bear's vote, I will not vilify people who have a different political ideology than me.

If we start telling people how to vote we are no longer a democracy.

Mockers I quite like the concept of 'false consciousness'. There's no doubt it's a thing. But, my goodness, it has been used (since its development) in the most patronising way. 😁

And how we would be if results had been different on thursday?

A bit more gracious I’d have hoped. #losers on Twitter isn’t a good look either. You just can’t get away from the crowing.

random.

Well said. I've been a contributor and a lurker here since the Brexit Referendum with many name changes of course....

I just ignore the holier than thou folk and those who think they know everything. And the goady folk too.

It really has to be the best thread series ever, anywhere on the subject. Just my view and thank you to the thread starter for giving us years of interesting and informed debate.

And Bear I did want a thing parliament but in hindsight I do not think that would have been a good thing.

There would not have been any validity with a 2nd referendum. Turnout would have been low and it would have made matters worse.

That's just my thoughts. It was on the back of my mind for a long time- but I have to be honest - I am terrified by a Johnson Brexit.

And I really struggle to understand how people could vote for him as a person.

That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. - Nye Bevan

Random I agree. They have to re connect with their voters. One problem is I think that there are two distinct groups - the old heavy industry, predominantly male voters, and the public sector mixed male and female.

Denis Skinner I felt was an admirable MP for the former category, but doesn't now have anything to offer the SportsDirect warehouse workers, or gig economy workers. And was too old and in poor health, so should have gone before. To be replaced by a younger more energetic candidate who could have gone round listening.

Not that listening is necessary to win votes in the Tory "pig with the blue rosette" areas.

I've spent the day amidst Corbynistas.

I honestly don't know what's worse.

#losers -style crowing or terrifyingly earnest discussions about how to purge Labour of the remaining Blairite who lost the GE for the Blessed Leader.

🤦‍♀️

I’m not here to gloat but I’d like to understand what you and others think you can achieve by continuing to just slag off the Tories.

What does discussion of any kind actually achieve?

The current crop of Tories are imbeciles. Thatcher, Major, Clarke and Heseltine make them look like pigmy dunces by comparison. If you’re happy with that crack on. Anyone with half a brain will be analysing them with a critical eye.

A bit more gracious I’d have hoped

I appreciate it wasn’t you but the crowing and gloating on the pub thread when we didn’t leave the EU on 31/10 is proof that’s not the case

And you might disagree with me but I’m not actually gloating, I’m saying there’s sod all point in going over what’s done - it can’t be changed for 5 years

False Conciousness is the essence of leftwing bollocks in all its bollocksness. Revolutionary Socialism is an argument that cannot be refuted:

Your revolution failed and your leftie government were a bunch of lying corrupt self-regarding bastards? - Well yes, that proves they weren't True soclialists.

Marxism is correct because it is scientific. It is scientific because Marxists say it is, and Marxism is scientific, so that proves it.

Rosa Luxemburg called out these bollocksmeisters, but they didn't listen, and we've had to put up with their bollocks ever since.

pmk
I'm still trying to come to terms with what it will mean for my family.
and many others