Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

Sorry loads of typos from me as well as the LibDems.

Baron Farage of Lilliput

(It's a rather nice suburb of Poole)

Our PM has offered this man a peerage it seems. This man has effectively created a pact with the main political party.

The PM likes to refer to himself as a One NATION Tory. This is not a One Nation Tory Party

One makes pacts with one’s equals. What Farage seems to have offered the Tories is fealty, so why shouldn’t we take it?

Contrast Corbyn, whose dogma won’t permit him to enter into a political alliance with anyone, for any reason.

Well spotted on Corbyn taking time out of his day to support an ousted Bolivian vote-rigging socialist when he might have spent it coming up with a coherent Brexit policy...

OK, Farage has got something in addition to a probable peerage offer:

I've seen ambassador to US suggested.

Cendrillon for once I agree with you.

Nigel is a liar. Boris is a liar. Nigel is a racist. Boris is a racist. Lots of other similarities too.

Today Nigel ensured that any lingering doubt about the type of party that the Tories now are has now vanished.

UkIp , BNP, Britain First , Tory party - that are one and the same.

Clearly a quiet deal has been struck. This is ok to the average Tory voter is it?

I’ve not made up my mind who to vote for... I tend to vote Tory but, as a Gauke-Hammond-Rudd type of Tory, this makes me less likely to vote for them, and it’s pretty much sealed the deal that I won’t.

This unspoken “pact” with Farage won’t help the Tories with the “one-nation-remainer-but-accepts-Brexit-needs-to-happen” types who are already holding their noses pretty tight. Any benefit from “disenfranchised” BP supporters could well be more than balanced by a loss from this group.

That’s a lot of rubbish, Random, and you know it. I don’t know which of the opposition parties you support, but there’s no point crying if they’re simply not very good at politics, which kind of matters in an election.

One makes pacts with one’s equals. What Farage seems to have offered the Tories is fealty, so why shouldn’t we take it?

His fealty will come at a price.... Why do you think the Tories have been so averse to offering a pact before? It may not be a problem to you or many Tory Brexiteer types, but (astonishingly) 20% or so of Remain voters have stuck with the Tories... Some will stay whatever, but not all of them and it will put off a sub-section of floating voters like me.

And again, the hypocrisy! The left/Remainers can tout their “Alliance” and their tactical voting campaigns and websites and apps telling you exactly how to vote where, but when the other side does it... ooooh, now that’s just not fair, not fair!

What is not true Cendrillon?

BJ is not a liar? Racist?

In my opinion the Tory party is now a far right party. There are still moderate Tory MPs but they are considerably fewer than before.

I also believe they should drop the word Unionist from there official name as they are in no way Unionists.

It may not be a problem to you or many Tory Brexiteer types, but (astonishingly) 20% or so of Remain voters have stuck with the Tories... Some will stay whatever, but not all of them and it will put off a sub-section of floating voters like me.

Then that’s your choice to risk a Corbyn premiership - probably with the support of the SNP, who will demand a second referendum as their price, and if they win it, will negotiate for Scotland against a UK government they themselves control!

Why all the angst about this rather loose arrangement and none about all the other pacts and tactical tie-ups organised by the other parties? Are we supposed to fight with both hands tied behind our backs?

I am no Corbyn fan but his comment that “one week ago Donald Trump told Nigel Farage to make a pact with Boris Johnson ... today, Trump got his wish.” will resonate with many.

Trump may be popular with a section of the Tory vote, but another section of it despise him...

Fine, you don’t like Trump, I don’t like him either. Could you please answer the other questions in my last post? I meant them seriously.

Why all the angst about this rather loose arrangement and none about all the other pacts?

Because this is a denied pact, the terms are secret and it apparently involves personal benefits and public office being bestowed on a charlatan. That's why the angst.

Then that’s your choice to risk a Corbyn premiership - probably with the support of the SNP, who will demand a second referendum as their price, and if they win it, will negotiate for Scotland against a UK government they themselves control!

Yes it is... And it’s a massive dilemma. Nick Boles echoes my views eloquently:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-50380613

My point is that allying with Farage isn’t a one way ticket electorally.... and whatever BJ says about alliances, unless you are under his spell (in which case you’re a lost cause anyway), no one actually believes him.

I would hope that the Labour party in northern seats milk the 'Voting for the Brexit Party is the same as voting Tory' line to entice some of their supporters back into the fold. Because most northern Labour voters I know would never vote Tory in a million years.

YY Peregrina

Why all the angst about this rather loose arrangement and none about all the other pacts and tactical tie-ups organised by the other parties? Are we supposed to fight with both hands tied behind our backs?

That’s politics... You can make pacts and alliances, just don’t expect them not to have negative as well as positive consequences.

And I would be making a fuss if, say, the LDs and Labour agreed a pact, though i recognise others would welcome that. I’ve no issue with the LD/Green/PC pact as I don’t believe either of the three are toxic (though I disagree with the LDs on various things as I’ve posted on here before)

If the Scottish people vote for the SNP then what is your issue with a referendum?

In my heart of hearts I want Scotland to stay part of the union even though i do no like it much at the moment.

But the ones to blame if Scotland does vote for independence are the tories.

As for my hopes for this election - a hung Parliament with Johnson losing his seat, so even if the Tories are the largest party, the Queen can't ask him to form a Government. Of course, he could then try to become a Lord, but it's a long time since we have had a Lord as PM, so I don't think that would work.

I think English people voting tactically to stop the SNP are likely to draw more Scottish voters to the SNP.

Why all the angst about this rather loose arrangement and none about all the other pacts and tactical tie-ups organised by the other parties?

There's a favourite saying on number, "when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time". To me, this pact shows who the Tories really have become and it's not a party I could ever vote for.

I’m sure some Remainer Conservatives will be tempted to go Lib Dem. Jo Swinson is impressive, sane, and anti-socialist - in some ways it would be like having the Coalition back again. But Boles is explicitly calling for another hung Parliament, and personally I think the endless paralysis and drift that would bring is in some ways the worst of all possible outcomes, not the best.

Even if the SNP get voted in and get their Section 30 notice, it's still up to the Scottish people (that is, all those resident in Scotland on the electoral register, EU citizens et al, from 16 upwards) to decide if they want independence. They don't need to vote for independence if they don't want it (but y'all know how I'll be voting )