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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
Basilpots · 25/10/2019 12:16

Saw that thread Placemats you would hope that some time these lies and deceit will catch up with them. I’m not holding my breath.Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2019 12:18

Hester E27 immigration has plummeted since the ref .... and non -EU immigration has soared to compensate

The govt could limit non-EU immigration if it wanted, just as it could before the ref

However, the UK needs more people to do certain jobs;
it's just a matter of which countries' nationals are attracted to the UK

DGRossetti · 25/10/2019 12:23

My guess is that @EmmanuelMacron (to whom this Commons has humiliatingly handed the decision) will see if the House will agree an election

I thought it was Merkel that held all the cards ?

The idea of a Franco-German tag team teaching the Tories a thing or two about compromise and teamwork is extremely seductive, as is the EU taking a collective stance of:

"we didn't want this, and when it happened, we wanted it sorted. But since the UK has done nothing but mess us around since day one, despite our damn good faith, then we'll show them how to really mess around internationally. Amateurs."

If nothing else, the imagined shock of Tories finding out that foreigners are people too - the hard way - would be worth it.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2019 12:26

The NHS and care services are dependent on E27 staff
Replacements would have to be found from outside the UK, as not enough Brits are willing / able to do the work

Same for fruit -pickers .... already fruit has rotted in the fields due to lack of E27 pickers

A significant % of doctors in the Uk are from the E27

This is even higher in surgical specialities

It takes years to train doctors and then further years for them to become specialists, so replacing them with new British doctors will take many years

Anyone who voted for Brexit because of the NHS ?
Look at these charts re doctors:

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living
Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living
prettybird · 25/10/2019 12:27

And there you have it. Grin

The fact that the 3 month rule is not enforceable in the UK is not the EU's fault - it is solely the UK's responsibility. Confused

...and funny how they manage to control/deport even legitimate, viz Windrush immigrants if they want to Hmm

DGRossetti · 25/10/2019 12:29

However, the UK needs more people to do certain jobs; it's just a matter of which countries' nationals are attracted to the UK

Bearing in mind EU immigrants had the right to vote in local elections - which they certainly used.

Non-EU immigrants are a Tory politicians wet dream. They have to pay tax. They accrue fuck all rights to pensions or healthcare, can't vote, and can easily be deported if they get uppity (by insisting on better pay, conditions, etc etc). They also drive down the labour rate of the indigenous population and provide a catch-all scapegoat when there's a need to deflect from anything shifty the Government may be up to at the time.

Obviously over time that'll lead to a backlash against immigration which the woke Tory then uses as a fear stick to beat the public into voting them back into office where they can continue the duplicitous pretence of being anti immigration whilst quietly letting it soar.

I feel like I'm doing my History A level online here Grin

bellinisurge · 25/10/2019 12:43

I tried this Brexitcast playlist in tbe Brexit Arms HmmWink
Anyone here fancy trying it out? www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07rsg2f

Miljah · 25/10/2019 12:52

My NHS Trust has begun to recruit from the Caribbean and Africa, due to the generalised staff shortages and loss of EU staff.

I am appalled at their treatment.

They are being coerced into undertaking training in their own time, unpaid.

They are being put on rotas where they are unsupported but everyone has been 'too busy' to undertake any assessments or check competencies on their skills.

They are disproportionately put on unsocial hours shifts so they're 'out of sight, out of mind'.

They are always the first to be 'asked' to do overtime (no one else is fighting to do any!) because they don't feel they can say no.

I am constantly trying to stand up for them, urging them to join the union, but the managers, who only care about numbers, are delighted to have such a compliant workforce.

DGRossetti · 25/10/2019 12:57

Miljah

Someone, somewhere has just read that, and (Mr. Burns voice) said Excellent

DGRossetti · 25/10/2019 12:59

So assuming Boris "strike" (really a work-to-rule Hmm) does go into effect, do Tory and Labour return to traditional voting patterns ? Except Tories have lost 21 MPs so are likely to lose a few non-Brexit bills ?

That Chinese person is smiling even broader now ...

Songsofexperience · 25/10/2019 12:59

I am constantly trying to stand up for them, urging them to join the union, but the managers, who only care about numbers, are delighted to have such a compliant workforce.

That is precisely the point of ending FOM. Tories don't mind cheap foreign workforce- just not one with equal rights.
If that lot could bring back slavery they would.

soworried888 · 25/10/2019 13:00

And if we have an election and it's an overall majority for Boris then Brexit will happen, in a crash out, no deal. Is this what you want? Soworried

@placemats Sure, but that's a risk we have to take.

If we sit back and do nothing then we will 100% be leaving the EU. If we go for a GE there's at least a chance that we might not.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 25/10/2019 13:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

soworried888 · 25/10/2019 13:06

Why would his WAB be passed if we don't have an election SoWorried?

@OhYouBadBadKitten Because Boris won the vote the the other day by a majority of 30 - it wasn't even close.

It might be passed, but hopefully only with amendments like a People's Vote added in.

The problem is, I don't trust MPs to vote for the PV - and if they don't then we're screwed!

tobee · 25/10/2019 13:14

Johnson saying to Corbyn it's up to him to "man up" and agree to an election. Corbyn should say that it really isn't up to him. There's a fixed term parliament act. It's up to Johnson to give proper time for his "deal" to go through parliament, to be scrutinised thoroughly. He should point out that the first stage has passed, Johnson says it's a great deal, so the PM should surely have faith it should bear up to scrutiny. Surely that would be the normal step. Not to have the first stage pass and then demand an election. He lost time tabling so give time. An election is irrelevant.

HeyNotInMyName · 25/10/2019 13:19

@Miljah I’m personally not surprised at all.
I worked abroad fir a company where the managers had been brought there and were all British. And that’s exactly how they treated people. With no respect at all for the people there and a sense of superiority that was quite astonishing. They were also ‘nice people’ back in the uk...,
This was in 2000. These last few years have allowed those feelings to be expressed. It is now ok to express those feelings and act on them So that’s what we see :(
I think it’s going to get worse. The anti foreign feelings and the ‘im better than you’ attitude are going to get worse

Icantreachthepretzels · 25/10/2019 13:22

I know it was pages and pages back - but thanks for the info nowordforfluffy - she has just go online and changed her details Smile

HeyNotInMyName · 25/10/2019 13:23

I agree tobee
And I wish Labour was pointing out that to him instead of playing BJ game and defending themselves

Why does BJ need a GE after all?? Surely with such a win as getting the WA through he be I a strong position. But rather he is acting as if he was scared... Wondering why... (or not His WA is shit and he knows it)

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2019 13:24

NEW THREAD:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eureferendumm2016/3726796-Westministenders-Sub-Prime-Minister-at-large?watched=1

soworried888 · 25/10/2019 13:33

Why does BJ need a GE after all??

Dunno, but we should be thanking out lucky stars that there's even a sniff of one, because like I say - it's the only way to stop Brexit (unless you believe MPs will vote for a PV amendment to the WAB - which I don't for one second).

ListeningQuietly · 25/10/2019 14:01

A quick end of thread apology for my foul mood last night.

Some rabid Brexiters (Chope fans) have caused me a huge amount of real world stress over the last 18 months and it came to a head yesterday.
I may have had one more martini than I should.

I retract nothing of what I typed, but do apologise for piling in with it all in quick succession.

Peace and love to all

DGRossetti · 25/10/2019 14:38

Despite getting to the laptop at 10, this is my first BBC news check.

That's how shite they have become.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2019 14:52

Peace and love, listening 💐
I hope the Brexiters are now stumbling helplessly in your dust and that you are feeling much better today

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