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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
Ellie56 · 25/10/2019 09:21

Actually just looking at a few random universities' term dates, students should still be in situ on 12th December, so hopefully they should all be able to vote.

Songsofexperience · 25/10/2019 09:22

Opposition parties planned so many amendments that the bill wouldn’t have been brexit at all and he would have then lost the majority

It would have only meant that there is a majority for a brexit that doesn't damage the economy and our standard of living. Finally brexit would have been defined and implemented.
Johnson is the only one thwarting that process right now.

Hoooo · 25/10/2019 09:23

Schools finish on 20th in most places.

But yeah, that last week of term is BUSY

Peregrina · 25/10/2019 09:24

You really have drunk the Brexit Kool Aid haven't you Sunshine? My ballot paper asked about Remain or Leave. I don't recall a PTO, or something saying 'Do this and the invisible ink will reveal the real promises.' Hannan said that no-one was talking of leaving the single market after the result was declared.

Remind yourself that if the ERG had voted for May's deal we would have left by now.

Besides which, Leavers are usually at Great Pains to point out that the Leave vote wasn't about Immigration. Thank you for confirming that for many of you, it was exactly that.

Oakenbeach · 25/10/2019 09:24

Opposition parties panned so many amendments that the bill wouldn’t have been brexit at all and he would have then lost the majority- plus delayed for up to a year for further referendums

Nonsense... He pulled the bill when he wasn’t able to get his way on a timetable. The amendments would still have been tabled had the timetable motion passed! The majority for the second reading of the bill was surprisingly large, suggesting it had a reasonable chance of passing the house irrespective of amendments.

BJ is playing cynical political games now rather than getting on with delivering Brexit... had he allowed a couple of weeks more to review the bill, we’d be well on our way to an early November exit.

Unpopular as this view may be on here, I would
like the deal to pass and for us to exit, not because I particularly like the deal or because I’m a Brexiteer, but only once the deal passed can people make choices about the Britain we want to live in, and our future relationship with Europe, that aren’t poisoned by the current failure to deliver on the referendum result at the forthcoming election....

I expect once the “boil has been lanced” and we’ve actually left, there will be less enthusiasm for the hard Brexit outlines in the political declaration... and whatever it says, if the UK Government did want something softer, I’d be confident the EU would accept as things progress over the coming months and years.

OublietteBravo · 25/10/2019 09:25

the bill wouldn’t have been brexit at all

Ah. Of course. Brexit means Brexit, but isn’t Brexit. Where is any possible deal. HmmConfused

Sunshine1239 · 25/10/2019 09:26

The amended version would have required us to accept basically everything we have without the say! They’d have been no point brexittimg unless it’s a clear brexit. Don’t kid ourselves people voted on those main two arguments

BJ will get his deal through for sure at some point

Once leave starts campaigning that labour have delayed and delayed brexit etc etc and now want another referendum, here up north theyll be out.

ContinuityError · 25/10/2019 09:27

The referendum promised 2 main things all but in writing

Control immigration
Ability to make own trade agreements

You mean the Leave campaign promised these things.

Just because you think you were promised something that doesn’t mean a Norway / EEA / EFTA Brexit wouldn’t fulfil the Referendum mandate.

Sunshine1239 · 25/10/2019 09:27

Brexit cool aid?

Bloody hell youre like a teen who’s got a new phrase and intends to use it in every sentence

prettybird · 25/10/2019 09:30

Uni terms might officially finish on 13 December, but in practice many of them will be winding down from the beginning of December. It depends on whether/when the students might have exams. Hmm

As it happens, ds is staying up in Aberdeen until 24 December because he has a job and will be working up to Christmas Eve. He's hoping to be let off early so he can get back down in time for our Christmas Dinner Xmas Shock (we follow the Danish tradition and have our main Christmas dinner on Christmas Eve Xmas Smile)

Peregrina · 25/10/2019 09:31

Kool Aid I believe.

OublietteBravo · 25/10/2019 09:32

Boris Johnson voted against the original WA. Twice. He appeared to have the numbers for the WAB, but pulled it in a petulant hissy fit because parliament wanted time to scrutinise it. Does Boris Johnson really want us to leave the EU? Because his actions suggest otherwise.

ContinuityError · 25/10/2019 09:34

I expect once the “boil has been lanced” and we’ve actually left, there will be less enthusiasm for the hard Brexit outlines in the political declaration

But the WAB as presented restricted the future relationship with the EU to what was in the current PD - ie, just a basic FTA.

Hence the necessity for Parliament to properly scrutinise the WAB.

Peregrina · 25/10/2019 09:34

The problem is as May found out, and now Johnson is finding out, Leave promised all things to all people, many of them mutually exclusive. So never mind what they might have said 'all but in writing'. They effectively promised more money for the NHS in writing, but even that "Let's spend it on the NHS" is a suggestion, not a cast iron promise.

Oakenbeach · 25/10/2019 09:34

Leavers are usually at Great Pains to point out that the Leave vote wasn't about Immigration.

Leavers are usually at great pains to point out that the Leave vote wasn’t about racism... and that racism and concerns about immigration are not synonymous.

It is the fact the Tories were unable to reduce net migration below 300,000 per year (way above their 100,000 target) that I believe was a key driving factor behind the Leave vote. I don’t believe this is controversial.

I think it was quite reasonable of people to be concerned that their country had no way of stopping their population increasing by the equivalent of the city of Coventry each year as a result of the EU single market. It was that issue which nearly tipped me to vote Leave.

Oakenbeach · 25/10/2019 09:38

But the WAB as presented restricted the future relationship with the EU to what was in the current PD - ie, just a basic FTA.

Yes, but a future Government can change this. I’m sure the EU wouldn’t slam the door in their faces if it asked for a CU despite what’s been agreed.

Peregrina · 25/10/2019 09:38

Oakenbeach - many Leave areas have very little immigration, and many Remain areas had quite high immigration. I think for a lot of people, it is very much about racism.

prettybird · 25/10/2019 09:43

Sunshine123 is just demonstrating his ignorance (interesting that it's a name with a number at the end Wink): the amended version doesn't mean us having to accept everything without a say Hmm because all it does is confirm a transition period of just over a year, to allow the super duper unicorn trade deal to be negotiated (ignoring he fact that complex trade deals take years to negotiate Confused)

And the UK doesn't get a say during that transition period (which the UK needs otherwise we're into Yellowhammer and worse territory) because, guess what? , we'll. have. left. Confused

I'm sure that sunshine thinks that a 3rd country should have a say in what the EU does Hmm

I'd refer him to the Irish Times article linked to above, but I don't think he is interested in informing himself Hmm

And at that, I'll stop even bothering to comment on his posts as he's just trying to derail it with inanity.

ContinuityError · 25/10/2019 09:45

Yes, but a future Government can change this.

But if the WAB had gone all the way through with this in then under the FTPA there wouldn’t need to be a GE until 2022 - and the current proposed transition period ends in 2020.

Hence Government trying to rush it through and Ministers disingenuously saying “vote through the WAB and WA and we can talk about the future relationship later”.

prettybird · 25/10/2019 09:46

Scotland needs more inmigration: without it, the country would be struggling to maintain its population, which, with aging demographics, would have a major negative impact on its economics Sad

BercowsFlyingFlamingo · 25/10/2019 09:48

I suspect certain areas had kool aid added to the water supply. It would explain the unexplainable.

prettybird · 25/10/2019 09:49

Hence Government trying to rush it through and Ministers disingenuously lying saying “vote through the WAB and WA and we can talk about the future relationship later”.

Fixed it for you Wink

lonelyplanetmum · 25/10/2019 09:52

So you are saying he doesn't have strong enough arguments to defend his bill and defeat the possible amendments?

This^ again and again.

If something is the right path the benefits are easier to sell. If Johnson's deal was better than what went before the substantive merits of the plan would be transparent. If there were any doubters the skills of statesmanship and erudite persuasion would demonstrate the positives and attract a majority.

Johnson tries trick after trick to force this package through because the underlying product is duff. You can't market the unmarketable.

Oakenbeach · 25/10/2019 09:55

Oakenbeach - many Leave areas have very little immigration, and many Remain areas had quite high immigration. I think for a lot of people, it is very much about racism.

It’s more the feeling of disempowerment... They felt powerless and forgotten by the political establishment, of which the EU was a part, and they saw the inability to control who lived here as a key part of this even if they weren’t effected directly. In the main I believe they voted to “take back control” from a distant, and yes largely foreign, body.

The irony is that the control they would regain as a result of this would be largely illusory and have little positive impact on their lives, whilst the purgatory of leaving the EU, and the loss of the advantages it offers (which are so easily taken for granted and weren’t emphasised enough by the Remain campaign) are likely to have a far larger negative impact, especially the corrosive impact it’s having on our democracy.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 25/10/2019 10:00

Michael Rosen
@MichaelRosenYes
· 1h
The government said that 'No Deal' had to be on the table so that they could negotiate with a powerful card to play if things got sticky. Now they've got a deal. So why now do they still want 'No Deal' on the table? @sajidjavid @BBCr4today

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