Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

The oppositions hands are equally tied, Corbyn cant do a thing until after the 31st Oct while Swinson refuses to back him in a GNU, If all opposition parties were on board I feel the more moderate of tories might also join on for Corbyn as caretaker PM after last night performance to his buttery brexit base

Johnsons performance I should add, not Corbyns

I expect his rage to tamp up - and those of his supporters - as 19 October gets nearer,
if it looks like he really is boxed in legally.

He intends to whip up sufficient support in the country to make it impossible to apply the law to him
So he can break the law - the Benn bill - with impunity
Hence all the vitriol and renaming of it as the "Surrender Act"

And a substantial chunk of Leavers are lapping it up

ramp up

Jess Phillips has had an urgent question on "the prime minister's language and role" timetabled according to Guardian Live. That will be one to watch.

Thank goodness for all the lurkers coming out here and sending emails. The ordinarily decent Briton coming out and saying they don't like where things are going is the only thing that will stop them.

So are we going to pretend that Labour Party politicians haven’t been calling the Tories traitors and murderers and dictators and Nazis for years now, without receiving a word of criticism for their violent misuse of language? Oh, we are? I guess it must be ok because they’re on the right side, or something.

@Hoooo This is the link I posted

BREXIT WAS THE RESULT OF A CORPORATE LOBBYING CAMPAIGN

https://richardhutton.wordpress.com/category/brexit-was-the-result-of-a-corporate-lobbying-campaign-which-backfired/

It is Richard Hutton's long & detailed history of the City spiv, big pharma & big US tech money behind Brexit

Their financing the network of interconnected rightwing thinktanks

The sudden switch from just using Brexit as a threat to make the EU let us be outside all EU laws & regs but still a member, to No Deal Brexit when they realised the EU wouldn't allow this.

Leadsom ridiculed Brexit only in 2013 and then suddnly U-turned

If only those who claim Remain is an "elite vs the people" would read about the massively wealthy behind Leave

The aims of slashing almost all workers rights are chilling

@PatienceThreadbare
Another mostly-lurker checking in.
I've emailed my MP and urged others to do the same.
Sicker and angrier than ever this morning.
Thanks Red and all regular posters.

^^ as above

I will happily condemn them also, can you provide citations please I'd hate for my ire to not fall on the correct people

Delurking here. I watched Parliament until 8 and had to turn off then, so sickened, but caught up with Newsnight. Thank God for this thread, and for Redtoothbrush. I emailed mp last night, he’s a keen young Tory in a safe seat, but I think he may be a decent man, I told him that I am concerned for Democracy. I just hope that no maniacal Brexiteer decides to make a name for himself today with some horrific act.
I am actually wondering if Mr Johnson was quite himself, yesterday, it was certainly a turbocharged performance.

I’ve been mostly lurking on these threads for years. I want to say thank you so much to Red and all of the regulars (even the ones I don’t agree with). I have learned so much and it gives me great comfort in knowing that I’m not alone in this sea of madness.

Cendrillon, no. It is extraordinarily difficult. We are dealing with the basic issues that keep civilizations afloat: the scope of different powers, the shape of democracy and its extent in this country, similarly the extent of law and what any of all that means in practice. There is also criticism when longer discussions are used instead of shorthand. We could all do with a little less drama though.

I'm running out of the door now for the rest of the day but maybe someone would contact Richard Hutton (is he on twitter?) and see if he compiled a list when he wrote that article? I am sure we would all know people working at the companies who would be very interested to know how their employer is lobbying for decimating their workers rights. This, IMO is what needs to go viral and should be being used by the opposition. Will catch up later 3am probably .

I think BJ's plan, such as it is, was to strike hard and fast and use the initial wave of popularity/optimism to intimidate any opposition into submission. There was no plan B, so now all he can do it is dig in and dig in again.

After all, it worked for Trump, think of the number of scandals that would have destroyed any other candidate.

But that does not necessarily replicate in another context.

For one thing, there is a crucial either/or situation in Brexit, which means an immediate and hugely important choice, that may well have immediate effects with a huge impact. I don't think anything Trump has faced has been that 'real' and extreme. His travel ban, 'build the wall', tax cuts, his policy towards Iran - none have been so starkly either/or, or had such a potentially widespread and immediate impact on the population/electorate. It is easier to spin shades of grey and long-term impact, which is why it (just about) worked in the referendum.

Cendrillon For many years, both parties have sometimes insulted each other, with "commie", "dictator", "Nazi"

• and Tories in recent years have used both of the latter against Labour

However, that is name-calling, not condoning serious threats to murder the opposition

No Labour PM ever stood up in the HoC and mocked women MPs over threats of murder to them and their families

No Labour PM ever said the threats will continue until they surrender to his policies

No Labour PM has ever attacked the courts and said he will not obey the law, that he is above the law

I had a look at the long article about the Brexit backers. I gave up after about 10 minutes. Is there anywhere that points you to a list of pro Brexit businesses. We recently had to choose an Estate Agent and saw something a bit Brexity on the SM of one that had done a valuation. We picked the other one.

I am emailing MP. He is a tory smarmer, but is in the local paper today saying that his family have received threats, so he may yet be receptive.

In other news, my stepmother, who is European, has been a tory ever since she moved to England. Which was forty five years ago. She now has to fill in a leave to remain form and is raging, and will never vote Conservative again. Not that it will make much difference where she is, but its a small glimmer of hope.

So are we going to pretend that Labour Party politicians haven’t been calling the Tories traitors and murderers and dictators and Nazis for years now

I must have missed all this

Also can I point you at these people who are giving all profits from their 'Fuck Boris' necklace to the Jo Cox foundation for the next two years.

I've gone for Fuck The Tories, as I think it may last longer.

I wrote to my MP for the first time a few weeks ago. He was one of the rebel Tories-who-are-no-longer-Tories, so I don't think I need to try to ginger him up. Maybe I will send a message of support, though, whatever I think of other aspects of his voting record, he stood up to be counted this time.

you all make me laugh, you talk about democracy, but none of you seem to accept the result of the referendum, the majority who voted, voted to leave the EU, but you think its ok to talk about democracy, without respecting the democratic vote we had, Democracy only if it suites you.

@unwravellingagain I love the fact that the 'Brexshit' necklace is already sold out

WorriedMutha Don't you think Brexit voters are doing the same to anti Brexit business.

Cendrillon You speak the language of a chaos merchant: pouring acid on the grounding of the moral with the cynical (& truth-free) cry of: 'They're all A's bad as each other.'

Underneath that cry is another message: 'This utter corruption of democracy is normal: do nothing; passively accept it.'

I, for one, refuse such cynical hypnotism.