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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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TokyoSushi · 26/09/2019 10:18

PMK, thank so much Red.

I'd like to (peacefully) march/protest at the Tory party conference this weekend/next week as it's in my area. please would you keep me posted of any events as you hear of them/signpost me where might be the best place to look?

squid4 · 26/09/2019 10:18

I am also incredibly appreciative of the regular posters on this thread.

TheElementsSong · 26/09/2019 10:19

There are no facts ironically sums up Brexit very well.

JeSuisPoulet · 26/09/2019 10:19

DGR - that is why I like that link as it has careful links to articles to support and said there are around 150 businesses which funded Brexit.

I think voting with our feet and employers being aware of how close they are to loosing workers rights. That will be one of the real "costs" to people that workers at all 150 firms will not be aware off.

Hoooo · 26/09/2019 10:20

Bugger I missed that business link...can a lind soul repost it for me?

Dontlickthetrolley · 26/09/2019 10:21

Good to see Lisa Nandy calling out last nights appaling behaviour for what it was.

This flashed up on Facebook the other night and I thought of you all, PMK and thanks to Red and the gang, this is my first port of call when finding out what's going on, it's definitely a depressing and sombre morning looks for something to break glass, and I'm not even keen on cats

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
Horehound · 26/09/2019 10:21

Pmk

BercowsFlyingFlamingo · 26/09/2019 10:22

@QueenOfThorns I had to do a double take as thought your cat was the same as the one who borrows us.

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
PigeonofDoom · 26/09/2019 10:23

“bonfire of red tape” also leads to disasters such as Grenfell. Health and Safety laws and regulatory requirements exist for a reason but your average brexiteer will see them as part of the “nanny state”. This in particular drives me up the wall. Bet your average brexiteer has no idea how prevalent work place related cancer was before H&S....

DarkAtEndOfUk · 26/09/2019 10:23

Thank you for the threads. PMK.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 10:25

If we are going into a dark, dark night, then let us not go quietly ..

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
Hoooo · 26/09/2019 10:26

It just..baffles me pigeon

They mean what they say.

Why aren't people listening?

Reminds me of immigrants in the US who voted for trump...then complained when he deported their family members...🤔

PigeonofDoom · 26/09/2019 10:29

That’s it, isn’t it hooo. You know they’ll be the first ones on the phone to the daily mail if they stub their toe on a paving slab but the HORROR at laws that protect people’s lives Hmm

UnaOfStormhold · 26/09/2019 10:29

I've written to my MP too. An ERG hardliner so I haven't thought it worth it before, but I've appealed to her as a woman in politics to speak out against this. Many thanks to previous posters for some great phrases that I've shamelessly cribbed from!

squid4 · 26/09/2019 10:33

I want to write to my MP but he's a good hardworking man in a very safe Labour seat so I don't know what it would add really. I have sent him general I approve of what you're doing, thank you, keep going, messages at times...

thecatfromjapan · 26/09/2019 10:34

This thread

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1177147467160281088?s=21

Which is by Nick Gutteridge on Twitter, is pretty grim.

It's reporting the view from Brussels.

In short: they are planning for 'enduring instability' in the UK.

Inability of Opposition to negotiate a deal or win an election; failure of institutions; possibility of No Deal further along the line.

I think it's the 'enduring instability' that is so awful.

Brexit was never about the EU. And, as such, we are already living in Brexit, in that our institutions are being undermined, our democracy is weakened, our economy is vulnerable and unstable.

We need to change the discourse on Brexit. The media needs to call it out for what it is, so that we can talk about 'Brexit' as something that is happening now, rather than something that will happen/may happen in the future.

usuallydormant · 26/09/2019 10:34

Flowers to all Westministenders. We are watching agog and horrified from abroad. Actually I couldn't watch him, 3 minutes of listening to him lie barefacedly was enough. Shameful.

I don't know if this will be of interest or just add to the depression but I heard a fascinating podcast with a Turkish journalist Ece Temelkuran who has written a book called How to Lose a Country: The 7 Steps from Democracy to Dictatorship. I haven't read the book but it sounds on the ball. Obviously the US is the easiest comparator for the UK to have but Turkey has also seen a chilling change...

The interview is here: podtail.com/en/podcast/the-david-mcwilliams-podcast/curious-minds-discussing-turkey-and-losing-democra/

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 10:36

Superb OP, red 💐

Summarises the dreadful, dangerous situation our democracy is in

JeSuisPoulet · 26/09/2019 10:36

@Hoooo Here you go businesses link- it's a long read but he links to many of them within it - wonder if he has them all compiled somewhere? Might be worth writing to him?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 10:36

Ah, buggered up my Dylan Thomas quote Sad Still on the plus side, I've got the 2014 BBC version of "Under Milk Wood" to try and locate and listen/watch for some quiet time.

TheABC · 26/09/2019 10:37

I still think Johnson's just lashing out. He has no plan as he is well and truly boxed in..

I am keeping my eyes on the Opposition. If they even wanted to step up and lead, now is the time.

Hoooo · 26/09/2019 10:41

Thank you jesuis

Allington · 26/09/2019 10:41

Another grateful, and weary, lurker here. PMKat is also weary today.

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 10:42

imo, BJ's frightening performance last night wasn't wholly calculated

It was an expression of fury by a narcissistic sociopath that the Suppreme Court & the MPs dare to thwart him
SImilar sociopaths on the Tory benches applauded him, to add their rage

BJ couldn't go to the Supreme Court and yell at them, implicitly threaten them
So he attacked those within his reach
and rejoiced in the fear and misery of vulnerable MPs

He wasn't shamed by their fear:
he was turned on by it; it strengthened his feeling of power

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