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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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TheOliphantintheRoom · 26/09/2019 09:40

De-lurking 😃

The sight of JRM smirking at the despair and fury of the female MP who spoke of death threats was a particular low for me yesterday.

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 09:41

Statement from leader of House later too (that's Rees Mogg)

OP posts:
MargoLovebutter · 26/09/2019 09:41

Occasional poster on these thread, but just wanted to applaud your opening post @RedToothBrush.

Was not surprised but was still horrified by the Govt front bench behaviour last night and particularly that of the PM. He is Voldamort in every sense. Power is more important to him than anything else, so he has lost every guiding principle, every iota of compassion, every decent, truthful and genuine belief. He has nothing at all, just a dead, hollow soul hungry for power.

Hoooo · 26/09/2019 09:44

I don't think I can bear to watch...

ListeningQuietly · 26/09/2019 09:47

PMK
Its about Democracy not Brexit now

placemats · 26/09/2019 09:47

Re Geoffrey Cox and Johnson's 'performance' yesterday in the House:

No commitment, you're an embarrassment
Yes, an embarrassment, a living endorsement
The intention that you have booked
Was an intention that was overlooked

You're both an embarrassment.

Basilpots · 26/09/2019 09:49

What else can he do ???

As DG rightly says he is trapped by FTPA.

By whipping up a storm people are not focusing on how poorly he is doing as PM.

He is trying to force oppositions hand to NC him and detract from his failures to get anywhere with EU or come up with any workable plan for NI. If we have another day like yesterday filled with fury we will get nowhere. Opposition MPs have to try not to be distracted by his shenanigans and to calmly continue to press him on yellow hammer, no deal preparations, his negotiations with EU. If it turns into a bun fight again he wins. If the whole day turns into a sideshow about him fighting for the will of the people and phrases like dying in a ditch for our democracy and betrayal etc he wins.

A little like resorting to the chicken suit Corbyn stuff he does it because he has got nothing else.

Abhorrent and unforgivable as it it.

Myriade · 26/09/2019 09:53

TM and her citizens of nowhere angered me and made me feel that the UK couldn’t be my home anymore. It was just where I live :(

This is at another level. I’ve been worried that we were going in the direction of a dictatorship and that things could get very nasty. I also somehow managed to convince myself I was overreacting.
But I fully agree with Red analysis about the blatant dismissal of the rule of law and people in general.
So now I’m scared.

I feel that I have no power as an eu citizen to say anything. I also feel that putting my head above the parapet would be dangerous and foolish of me in the current circumstances.

So what else can i do bar preparing for the worst and be ready to leave in a rush because one more attack from BJ will put my life and my dcs life in danger?

Myriade · 26/09/2019 09:57

Btw I wondered why on Earth BJ went to the US when we (and him!) were all waiting for the result of the judgement from the SC. When there was so many th8ngs to sort out before the 31st October.

And then reading one of Red posts on the previous thread, I understood. He went there for advice. Yes he met Trump but who else from his ‘advisors’ did he see? Is it a coincidence that he came back being even more goading and aggressive?....

LadyHalesBrooch · 26/09/2019 09:57

The point of yesterday’s shameful performance by the Convervative front bench was to invoke fury in the opposition, in advance of today’s conference recess vote.

If denied a recess, they will proceed to a short, say 5-6 day, prorogation. This will be spun as justified, due to being denied the usual courtesy over a recess. It’s playing to the gallery. The Telegraph has basically outlined this as the way forward in it’s rolling live feed today.

I fear that De Pfeffel has taken the sign of the spider on my lady’s gown, as De Brus did- as a sign to try again.

JeSuisPoulet · 26/09/2019 09:58

Prime Minister Kremlin

Seemed appropriate.

I was reading the link (BCF?) posted yesterday - the long one about how big business funded Brexit (if anyone missed it here it is) and was thinking how perhaps we could boycott the companies involved? Barclays for eg - Pfizer would be a hard one for those on meds...we could compile a list at least and try to get it viral on SM?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 09:58

To counter the gloom, you can't just cut and paste tricks from other countries and expect the same results. The universe is governed by Prato and the missing 20% might be the key ?

Trump got where he is because at the end of the day, a US even with Trump is still the worlds global superpower.

The UK is not the US, and it's still open to question whether a UK with Boris works as the UK at all ?

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 09:59

Pareto

WhatwouldScoobyDoo · 26/09/2019 10:00

PMK

Great message in the opening post, red , thank you.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 26/09/2019 10:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flouncyfanny · 26/09/2019 10:01

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

darkcloudsandrainstorms · 26/09/2019 10:06

Yellowhammer are not our facts and evidences.

They are scenarios.

There are no facts.

You are scaremongering.

flouncyfanny · 26/09/2019 10:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flouncyfanny · 26/09/2019 10:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dockray · 26/09/2019 10:11

Myriade, I agree with you. I now feel scared of what will happen. I've been angry at what has happened but seeing his willingness to adopt such a confrontational and divisive approach makes me really scared for where the country is heading.

JeSuisPoulet · 26/09/2019 10:12

Flouncy same with Wetherspoons.

I'd imagine employers of all of the companies would be interested to know they will be expected to give up many workers rights too...

DGRossetti · 26/09/2019 10:14

already skip Wetherspoons

Who are suffering. (As are their carpet suppliers Axminster).

However, don't underestimate how crafty firms can be at rebranding and hiding their parentage. Folk who were boycotting South Africa will know only too well.

There's also a case for knowing who is investing in these companies too after all it's no use not spending £10 in a Wetherspoons if your pension company is investing millions in them ...

squid4 · 26/09/2019 10:15

Me and my other half are really depressed this morning. Seems like we're not alone.

I personally can't wait for an election. Regardless of the polls. Just so we can discuss some actual hopeful policies that could fix some stuff. I completely understand why it's safer to wait, but it's agonising. I want to talk about the green industrial revolution stuff, and the NHS, and housing.

DP thinks I will have to quit A&E if there's a tory majority. The burnout amongst staff is sky high already.

I think I am about as angry with the media as I am with the tories at the moment. I honestly don't understand how some of these journalists can sleep at night.

My impression of Johnson is like a dying horror film monster trying for one last scare. I don't think it's calculated. I wonder if people/journalists claiming things like he's deliberately lost a supreme court case in order to bolster his polling... I feel sometimes like it's part of the problem. (Though I understand frequently it's in despair not admiration.) Like if you repeat it enough times... people will get the impression he is some absolute populist mastermind - not just fucking up everything because he is entitled and spoiled and lazy.

People were similar about May, said everything she did however bad was improving her standing with the public, then it all fell apart when scrutinised. And she was nowhere near as incompetent as this.

I think journalists believe their own press sometimes. Even when they are semi making it up.

singswithitsfingers · 26/09/2019 10:17

Delurking to thank you all very much for these threads. They are the first thing I turn to and I am greatly appreciative.

Hoooo · 26/09/2019 10:17

Odd, isn't it?
The erg, farage and brexiters have made NO secret of their nhs privatisation plans or of their "bonfire of red tape"...
Makes you wonder what leavers think that actually means?
I'm more and more minded that they think it means things like littering fines, speeding fines etc
Won't they be surprised when sick pay, maternity pay and workers rights inc h&s go!!

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