Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

I think that the unlawful prorogation has taken away the CCA route.

In more ways that one - it's shown how clear and precise SCOTUK are when they need to be, and how they would cut through any Bwaffle Bwaffle (it's a new word I'm trying out to describe how Boris can generate the components of speech without any information being conveyed) with no problem whatsoever.

I think the SCOTUK ruling may have also served as a warning shot to the functions in the executive that are charged with ensuring it does not break the law. I would be curious to know if any legal researchers have been brushing up their knowledge of the Nuremberg trials (I guess a real lawyer would ask "Which one ?" ).

TL;DR, the government, in whatever form, is bound to abide by the laws and conventions of the land. The only time that would not be true would be when you have been invaded and the government either no longer exists, or capitulates to another power.

On Mandelson Yep! I always think of a Peter Kay style question "has than 'owt moist?" How on earth did he end up representing Hartlepool?!

On the credit side of the account for Mandy, I do remember an interview between him and Andrew Marr where Mandelson really took AM down a few pegs, it was a beauty.

Cummings is reported as saying he thinks there are ways round the Benn Act. If so, it would be exquisite justice for the had-enough-of-experts brigade if it turned out there weren't.

Blummin lawyers bringing their blumming law into everything.

O'Neill's demented outburst this afternoon was probably just the random rantings of a thirsty carpet-chewer, but the alternative possibility cannot be ruled out that it was an outlyer for a growing chorus of calls from the Express, Telegraph and dear old Currant Bun calling for the people to take to the streets to save Brexit from the Remain-voting judges, etc.

The appetite for public disorder seems relatively limited though. There might be a few hundred Waxy Lemons and football hooligans prepared to get themselves arrested for the cause (after a pint or eight) but the elderly brexiters you see on QT and on BBC vox pops are not going to take to the streets and break stuff.

If you go on Brexit supporting accounts on twitter - which I sometimes do, because you should get to know your enemy (and then report his racist posts) - you'll often see attempts to organise, usually followed by plaintive posts about the lack of support.

We are back to Scooby Doo

I would have got away with it if it hadn’t been for the meddling lawyers

pmk!

Cummings is reported as saying he thinks there are ways round the Benn Act.

Probably in the same way that my next door neighbour thinks he knows exactly how to sort the country out.

Letting SCOTUK sink in, the only way around the Benn act is the same way the Benn act was passed.

Parliament.

Maybe Cummings is trying to redefine "parliament" to mean something new ? Nothing I have seen so far convinces me that some Leavers would not be so arrogant as to tell us we've been getting it wrong for centuries.

Oh, hang on, I get it. Maybe Boris is a Freeman of the Land ?

The appetite for public disorder seems relatively limited though.

Bread and circuses.

Cummings is reported as saying he thinks there are ways round the Benn Act.

Well as long as the Attorney General has signed off on it then they will be fine.

Misti

Yep, it's where Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood fell down. The people they never rise up like they're meant to.

(I do recommend everyone who hasn't seen it searches out Part 1 of Adam Curtis The Power of Nightmares because it explains so well how we got here.)

On Mandelson, he never made the famous remark about mushy peas, but it was a lie worthy of the man himself in full flow about Surfball and Baby Dome, etc.)

And he is Herbert Morrison's grandson. Someone once said HM was his own worst enemy. 'Not while I'm alive,' said Ernie Bevin.

you'll often see attempts to organise, usually followed by plaintive posts about the lack of support

To be accurate, you see plenty of responses saying "I'll be there, we'll take back control, we'll show them how The People feel" and then all the ports and motorways are blockaded and the country grinds to a standstill.

OK, not the bit starting with "and."

Alexander known as Boris of the family Johnson

That’s why the laws don’t apply to him.

And he is Herbert Morrison's grandson. Someone once said HM was his own worst enemy. 'Not while I'm alive,' said Ernie Bevin.

Ah I needed a good laugh today. That hit the spot.

Cummings might also be saying that to divert resources into checking that there aren't the loopholes that he claims there to be - so that those that oppose him are then blindsided by something else

Alternatively, he might be trying to get them to panic and try to insert some sort of new clause to tighten things up to avoid the imagined loophole but which has the opposite effect because it's been done in a hurry.

I don't think that that would happen because Grieve, Starmer, Cherry et al are too good at their old professional jobs to allow that But that possibility doesn't cross Cummings' mind, because he is supremely and arrogantly confident in his superiority and despises pesky experts.

I needed a good laugh today.

Well it is Friday afternoon.

Boris would be a good Scooby-Doo, and Cummings dresses like Shaggy. Now I've got Leadsome as Daphne and Gove as Velma. And Francois could be Scrappy-Doo

Excellent casting Mockers.

Inspired casting 😂

I think Jeremy Corbyn would have had a much easier time if half his own party hadn't been so hostile when he was elected - that really did help legitimise all the (mostly ludicrous) attacks on him from the msm and govt benches.

I think it's a good thing that Labour have moved more to the left again under Corbyn (I would, i'm a leftie) but they obviously need to take the centre with them, and that's more likely under a different leader. I certainly don't regard Kier Starmer or Yvette Cooper as 'red tories', and would be happy to see either of them as a successor.

It would be bizarre to overlook the LOTO in a GNU, and more fool the LidDems if they persist in their refusal to work with him. They may not like it, but it's surely the least bad option at the moment.

@Ellie were there any sensible responses?

It's hard to bother too much about Cummings, if it was his advice to prorogue parliament. Especially since the entire SCOTUK process and ruling cannot have been in his original thinking ... either he didn't think it would happen, or he assumed it would go his way. Geoffrey Cox having to blather on in parliament suggests the same.

Which makes me wonder if we are at that stage in events where the personality flaws of the big cheeses start to work against them. Without bothering to do any research (so still in the spirit of Brexit) I am guessing that both Johnson and Cummings are not people you would like to contradict or give bad news to. Remember that scene in "Downfall" where Hitler is oblivious to the fall of the Reich around him ?

Trump is the same by the way. Imagine telling Donnie T that he might be wrong, or mistaken ?

Cendrillon, I struggle to believe that you voted remain when you apparently unreservedly support BoZo and are seemingly skipping with glee at the idea of him winning a GE. I really do not think those two things are compatible in the world of critical thinking.

@Socksontheradiator

Yes but they were obviously remainers as they all agreed with the sentiments!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3703007-Westminstenders-The-Tory-Party-Spectacular?watched=1
New thread

Just putting this here for those who fancy going to the cinema when the film comes out
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_Shall_Come

Having a quick google of Lord Mandelson I see he's recently hit the papers (guess which ones, anyone?) because apparently he and Blair are behind an attempt to scupper Brexit.

Also, slightly more widely reported in the press a month ago, photographed with Jeffrey Epstein.