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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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DarkAtEndOfUk · 26/09/2019 11:04

@Hester54 we've heard all this before so many times. Please listen. The leave result in that referendum was so very narrowly obtained. It was also over a very narrow question, the implications of which were not known and not understood. Even if we accept the leave result, there was further discussion to be had about the shape and method of leaving. Do you think democracy should have stopped back then and all discussion ceased forever?

flouncyfanny · 26/09/2019 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 11:05

British people when discussing the rise of Hitler to power have often asked why the people didn't rise up and stop him,
in the early years before he was in full control

The whole Brexit saga has shown how propoganda and lies can whip up feelings of a large minority to an extent that they support their leaders regardless of anything they might say or do, any taboos they break

that they will excuse anything said or done against their opponents.

Such demagogues, almost always with a cabal of the very wealthy behind them, first have to smash all that might constrain them:

the accepted civilised norms and limits of behaviour for both leaders and their ordinary followers
the democratic institutions of state, such as the courts, parliament, the head of state - if not compliant / mute

Random18 · 26/09/2019 11:07

Cendrillon you are a prime example of why our future is so bleak.

You do not condone the indefensible bit you go on the defensive.

This is the PM of the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland knowingly using language that he knows will inflame hatred and division.

This is the PM who belittled MPs scared for their lives.

Yet you condone him. Sad

Random18 · 26/09/2019 11:08

Sorry that doesn't make sense.

*Yet you support him

CendrillonSings · 26/09/2019 11:09

However, that is name-calling, not condoning serious threats to murder the opposition

Oh really? How about the current Shadow Chancellor, Corbyn's "brain" and closest political ally (yes, it's the Mail - good lucking finding a report in the Guardian!):

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2832286/Labour-MPs-cheered-jokes-lynching-Tory-minister-killing-royal-sick-alternative-poppy-day-comedy-night.html

The Labour party today tried to disown comments made by a senior backbencher about wanting to 'lynch' a Tory Cabinet minister.

Left-winger John McDonnell made the offensive remarks about Employment Minister Esther McVey at a tasteless Remembrance Sunday event, the Daily Mail revealed today.

He told the audience how a campaign had been launched to kick Ms McVey out of her seat, but activists were arguing 'Why we are sacking her? Why aren't we lynching the b?'.

The 'anti-war comedy night' even featured remarks mocking the ceramic poppies at the Tower of London and killing the Royal Family.

Among those attending the event at a club in Covent Garden were former shadow minister Diane Abbott and Left-wing MP Jeremy Corbyn

No, no problems in the Labour Party, nothing to see here...

Hester54 · 26/09/2019 11:10

DarkAtEndOfUk No, but I think we should at least implement the result of the referendum, That is democracy, I don't understand how you people can talk as the government is trying to drag us out with a remain vote, that would be undemocratic.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 11:10

Hester

  1. Under the British constitution, a referendum does not make law Legally is only a glorified opinion poll, for Parliament to accept or reject as it wishes

Regardless of what any PM may promise in a referendum or GE manifesto, if Parliament won't allow it, then it doesn't happen

  1. A PM openly even in the HoC mocking MPs who tell of death threats to them and their familes Telling them the threats will continue until they give in

Mocking the highest court and saying he will not obey the law

That is not democracy; that is how a dictatorship starts

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 11:11

imo, BJ's frightening performance last night wasn't wholly calculated

Disagree with this, because he deliberately and repeatedly used certain phrases. This is a propaganda technique.

^It was an expression of fury by a narcissistic sociopath that the Suppreme Court & the MPs dare to thwart him
SImilar sociopaths on the Tory benches applauded him, to add their rage^

This is something that isn't mutually exclusive from a deliberate plan to try and place certain stock phrases in the minds of the public by ensuring that they are the clips that the news shows.

On that note I refer to the following tweets (which are being reported by a few different sources in similar ways, even if slightly differently worded)

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
Government in a completely uncompromising mood this morning

1st govt source: “It is no coincidence that the one phrase they want to ban is one of our main attack lines for the election they are too cowardly to call.”

2nd govt source: “It’s like with 350m. If it hadn’t cut through before, Surrender Act definitely has now”

3rd govt source: “I’ve renamed my imaginary dog ‘Labour support the surrender act’. Unfortunately he’s gone missing so I’ve spent the morning running around east London having to shout ‘Labour support the surrender act’. I do hope they don’t find this offensive”

^But a former member of the govt says:

“It’s a murdered mother they’re showing such contempt for. Stomach churning stuff. Even if they are happy to mobilise the angriest corners of society to better their chances of a majority, can they do it twice? Not a sustainable vote base.”^

And

Sam Coates Sky@samcoatessky
Some parts of gvt not in a mood to compromise this AM. One gvt source

“Remain MPs are trying to overturn a democratic vote and they literally passed the Surrender Act. Actions have consequences. Fact they’re whining about abuse while also seeking a second referendum which ...

.... would be one massive campaign of total abuse shows they’re even more clueless about true public opinion than in 2016,” says a gvt source

I also refer to this twitter thread featuring a couple of journalists and Mr Banks.

Dan Hodges @DPJHodges
We need to draw a distinction this morning. You cannot argue the words "surrender" or "betrayal" should become proscribed. But the specific response by Boris Johnson to the death of Jo Cox, and broader fears about MPs safety, were a disgrace, and he needs to apologise for them.

Arron Banks @ arron_banks
Ridiculous, they deliberately invoked the dead for political gain. The only ones that should be apologising are the ghastly female labour MPs who scream and shout abuse & then invoke victimhood and Jo Cox ...

Mark Di Stefano @markdistef
The day after Jo Cox’s murder (17 June 2016) groups agreed to suspend campaigning. Leaked emails revealed by Channel 4 show Arron Banks telling campaigners to “keep pumping out” material and to “press harder”:
www.channel4.com/news/the-banks-files-brexit-funder-urged-campaign-to-press-it-harder-after-jo-cox-murder
The Banks Files: Brexit funder urged campaign to “press it harder” after Jo Cox murder

Andy Wigmore @andywigmore
I would withdraw that tweet @MarkDiStef that’s untrue and defamatory @Arron_banks @kingsleynapley

Mark Di Stefano @markdistef
More than happy to point out, Banks’ media handler disputes the record of events as reported by Channel 4

On a slightly nicer note.

Sam Coates Sky@samcoatessky
Labour MP Paula Sheriff tells @adamboultonSKY that a Tory cabinet minister has come up to her, given her a hug and said they are “mortified” by the comments of the PM last night and promised to sort it

There is this cross party respect of colleagues that behind the scenes many on both sides of the house share - especially on things like shared issues they face in their workplace.

Will that cut through though?

Hard to say. Certainly there does seem to be a split in the Tory Party over this, and it would be wrong to say that Johnson has support even of his own.

However I do think this is definitely a deliberate election tactic. It's one used at the ref and one which Trump repeatedly uses.

It's offend and then refuse to apologise and instead double down. Trump does this because it further polarised and further polarisation protects the authoritarian figure at the centre because it radicalised his core base and increases the culture of fear surrounding him. It means fewer people are willing to challenge and hold to account because they know there may be a personal cost to them to do so.

The authoritarian needs to mob to enforce his authority through intimidation of the institutions which hold power to account.

How far does this go? Who knows but we know what happens if it is not stood up to with full force in the face of that fear.

Time to be brave. And there may well be casualties as part of that process, if we understand the nature of what is happening properly and take the danger as seriously as we should.

OP posts:
TokyoSushi · 26/09/2019 11:11

PMK with Tokyopup

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
TokyoSushi · 26/09/2019 11:11

Here he is!

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
flouncyfanny · 26/09/2019 11:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CendrillonSings · 26/09/2019 11:12

You speak the language of a chaos merchant: pouring acid on the grounding of the moral with the cynical (& truth-free) cry of: 'They're all A's bad as each other.'

Wrong again - the Labour Party is much, much worse.

What I'd like is to puncture the pious hypocrisy that saying humbug makes you the new Hitler, whereas the cuddly Left can say whatever the fuck they like because, well, they're the left and the left is automatically good.

Allington · 26/09/2019 11:15

IF the referendum was binding on Parliament/the government, the result would probably have had to be put aside and redone because there were so many irregularities in the Leave Campaign.

As implementing the result was not binding, the campaign was not held to the usual standards of honesty, financing etc.

So if you want the referendum vote to be held to the same standard of being compulsory, in the way a general election is, then it needs to be held again under the same standards that apply to campaigning as a general election.

And I realise my grammar is a bit out there - feel free to correctit if it bothers you. I am about to go out so haven't the time right now to work out how to word it.

thecatfromjapan · 26/09/2019 11:16

The field of comedy is quite different from the field of politics, and a comedy club is quite different from the HoP, and a comedian is quite different from a PM.

Aristotle's work on comedy has been lost, which is a shame - I think he's have been interesting on an analysis of boundaries and license in comedic language, and how it fits into the language and obligations of the moral and political state.

However, even without that, most of us can see there's a big differdnce.

The fact that you, Cendrillon, and the Daily Mail are trying to elude that differdnce just makes me say, again:

I will not accept this normalisation of the intolerable.

unwravellingagain · 26/09/2019 11:16

@Flouncyfanny Will do. DH is getting me one now, because I can't wait!

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 11:16

Matthew Lavender @mattlavendersky
One of the most depressing things in politics right now is the tendency on all sides to deflect criticism by pointing to bad things done by people on the other side. Whether it's racism, abusive language, or other things, the response is all too often "but what about X" ... (1/2)

People on all sides are guilty, and it's mightily depressing. 'It's all relative' is not an excuse for unacceptable behaviour. It's pathetic. Grow up, take responsibility, act like an adult, and have some dignity (2/2)

In fairness to this tweet there have been a couple of MPs who have stood up and said words to this effect this morning.

There is still the UQ debate on the toxicity of the political culture (tabled by Jess Phillips by supported by some on the government benches) to come today.

It will be interesting to watch.

It's been noticeable that there has been a lack of the government front bench so far this morning. Raab is currently doing a UQ on Hong Kong but he's the first and only Cabinet minister I've seen so far.

OP posts:
thecatfromjapan · 26/09/2019 11:16

Elide the difference.

unwravellingagain · 26/09/2019 11:18

apparently Johnson isn't going to bother to turn up

DarkAtEndOfUk · 26/09/2019 11:18

Cendrillon He was apparently quoting the remarks of someone else, ordinary people living ordinary lives. It is entirely normal in everyday British speech to use phrases like 'I could shoot this messenger' or 'I could throttle so and so'. But I agree that when dealing with matters of such import, in a time when divisions have escalated and feelings are running high, people in senior positions need to set the example, bear in mind that their every word will be watched, written down and used in ways they never intended, and never use that kind of language.

@Hester54 there was a thread about what you would settle for if you can't get what you want. A lot of remainers on there would settle for a soft Brexit. Very few people actually want a hard, no-deal Brexit. When the referendum was carried out, no-deal was specifically ruled out as an option by Johnson among others. There are many different possible forms of Brexit, but none of them as good as staying in would be in purely economic terms. This is the discussion we need to have, not be distracted by Johnson forcing what he knows - knows - will be an absolute disaster for the country, which he himself claimed he never even wanted.

Socksontheradiator · 26/09/2019 11:19

This is my go-to place for understanding what's going on.
flouncyfanny thanks for the list.

CendrillonSings · 26/09/2019 11:20

The field of comedy is quite different from the field of politics, and a comedy club is quite different from the HoP, and a comedian is quite different from a PM.

Er, that "comedian" was the veteran Labour MP, and current Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell - try actually reading!

This is exactly the kind of left-wing hypocrisy I'm talking about.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 11:20

cendrillon and he should be condemned, as he was
He should have been kicked out of the party

When this isn't nipped in the bud, then it grows
So we get rightwingers like you, using this as justification when your side take the next big step
and it^'s the PM saying this in the HoC, with MPs joining in
and saying he won't obey the law

This is a vicious spiral which only grows when people won't condemn their own side because the other side once did something at a much lower level
^
If you excuse your PM, then expect the hard left to excuse someone like McDonnell or Milne who go much further^

So, if the hard left take power, what is the next big step up the escalation away from democracy ?^^

Because Tories behaved badly the last time
So people on the left will excuse theiir side just like your whataboutery now^

HesterThrale · 26/09/2019 11:21

Yes I think he's angry and cornered. In reality, where can he go?

The chamber debate after he'd left was calmer, and that's what we need now. I hope they don't feel goaded into voting for an election yet.

What can we do? I think some Tory moderates must be considering their positions. I think it's worth writing to even the hardliners as they need to know the extent of the outrage. I read somewhere that MPs know that every letter represents maybe 100 people who feel the same but don't write.

Write to them about his failures: inability to get a deal and already-apparent total inadequacy in 'bringing the country together'.

I might write to some Lords as well. At some point they'll be voting on Bills. You can write to any - it's not constituency--based. When I wrote to them before, I had a better response than from my MP.

www.writetothem.com

I also read somewhere that about 20% of the population of most countries are authoritarian. (I wish I could find this link now!) They'll be attracted to his bluster and bombast. What he wants to do is edge his support above 30% - this might get him a small majority in the inevitable election.

We need to prevent that. Talk about this to at least one woman who's unaware of what's going on. As women, we have a lot to lose. He already has a 'woman problem'; we can all help make it the decisive vulnerability.

Orangin · 26/09/2019 11:22

Bigchoc. You say No Labour PM ever mocked women MPs over threats of murder.
Are you forgetting John McDonnell's gleeful retelling of a lynching joke about Esther Mcvey?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42682854/audio-of-john-mcdonnell-s-2014-lynching-remark

Misogyny and violent language occurs on both sides unfortunately.