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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

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NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 11:00

I'm loving watching this! 😁😁

OhYouBadBadKitten · 17/09/2019 11:00

Now Lord Pannick has to add 63 on to every page number.

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 17/09/2019 11:01

I am Gripped watching Lord Pannick. (Excellent name!)

Guardian live feed and analysis at the same time is excellent

Camomila · 17/09/2019 11:06

Now Lord Pannick has to add 63 on to every page number

Proper lol'd at that. I used to love help making up court bundles all nice and neatly. Very satisfying if you are a bit of a perfectionist.

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 11:10

Did anyone catch Woman's Hour on R4 today - had women in BxP on there and it was infuriating. No there won't be med shortages because EU won't allow it (no mention of how they would get them to us). No mention of the shortages already happening or lack of nurses partly due to EU workers leaving. Complete disbelief in food shortages. Apparently mum's care about the future of democracy for their kids (we are all talking about it in the playground!). People didn't vote for economic reasons, they would rather be poor and know we still "have democracy" Hmm A link here if anyone has a strong stomach and a wall to bash your head on www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007qlvb

tobee · 17/09/2019 11:14

God I used to hate Crown Court! Day off school I'll, The depressing music, feeling sick, Emmerdale Farm had just been on/was about to be. The only good thing was Good Afternoon with Mavis Nicholson!!

mummmy2017 · 17/09/2019 11:22

Slight pannick in the voice of the man listing the evidence, and complaints about how no statement from govenment means no one to cross examine in court.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 17/09/2019 11:23

I missed a bit when a tradesman arrived, but he seems to be saying the same thing as before so that's ok.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 17/09/2019 11:24

No statement from the government?

Camomila · 17/09/2019 11:25

I wonder how they'll teach about Brexit when our DC are at secondary/sixth form? (My DS is 3)

OhYouBadBadKitten · 17/09/2019 11:25

ok, saw that on guardian live.

NoWordForFluffy · 17/09/2019 11:26

No panic that I can tell. Other than Lord Pannick, that is.

It's all very normal Court hearing stuff really.

Ohflippineck · 17/09/2019 11:30

Camomila

I wonder how they'll teach about Brexit when our DC are at secondary/sixth form? (My DS is 3)”.

Mine has just started Government and Politics A level. Suspect the tutor is tearing his hair out and throwing his resources out of the window!

CrunchyCarrot · 17/09/2019 11:41

"It will be of great interest to know which Bills were lost due to Prorogation" ...

Yes indeed it will.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/09/2019 11:45

I love hearing the name Lord Pannick. It tickles my childish side.

tobee · 17/09/2019 11:54

Lord Pannick sounds like he should be a House and Garage DJ

CrunchyCarrot · 17/09/2019 12:20

It's all on BBC news channel! That makes life a bit easier.

MockersthefeMANist · 17/09/2019 12:21

Pannick in the courts of London.

You want wacky judge names:

There was Igor Judge, who was Judge Judge, then the Lord Justice Judge.

There was also Judge Lord, who became Lord (Justice) Lord.

Grinchly · 17/09/2019 12:23

Going back briefly to the rationing issue, I saw those BTL comments on RNorth's blog from the poster JDD.

At first I took them with a pinch of salt, but it soon became clear to me that he was doing what he claimed to be doing - acting as a paid consultant to HMG on Brexit planning.

So I believe him when he said rationing was being planned for and stuff was being printed in readiness.

PerkingFaintly · 17/09/2019 12:43

PMK to follow commentary on Supreme Court. I knew you lot'd be on this.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/09/2019 12:47

mockers Grin that's really tickled me too. I know how dippy I can be and can imagine getting Lord Judge totally wrong - like Judge Lord, no Lord Judge, no Judge Judge, argh.

CrunchyCarrot · 17/09/2019 13:03

Anyone else think that oblong green shape on the floor looks like an eye? Makes me think of the Big Brother house! Grin

OhYouBadBadKitten · 17/09/2019 13:04

So the only remedy they are seeking is that there is a declaration that the prorogation was unlawful.

Lunchtime now. They are reconvening at 2pm.

PerkingFaintly · 17/09/2019 13:05

Phew! Well, a break until 2 pm.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 17/09/2019 13:09

They are shrewd to only ask for the declaration. It keeps it in the realms of legal analysis rather than telling the Prime Minister what to do.

The SC will be more comfortable being limited to ruling on a point of law. They are very very wary of being dragged into anything that looks more political.